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Open Fuse

Here you can exchange your experience and datas about your home build boards
airsail
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Lift and Levitaz foils
Carbonco and North boards
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby airsail » Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:27 am

fluidity wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:23 am


Does anyone have a preference for under-slung or over-slung stabilisers?
Over slung is the way to go. I have early Lift foils, the ones with the triangular fuselage. Both the wing and stab are underslung which works fine as the wing is very thin, 11mm. Now the issue is with larger custom wings, the wake from the thicker front wing impacts the stab, you feel a constant rumble through the foil.
I have managed to fix the rumble by shimming the front wing nose down slightly to move the wake from the wing away from the stab. But, although I silenced the foil I got some undesirable stability issues. I have opted for a very slight rumble but good stability.
If the stab was mounted on top of the fuselage there would be no problem.

PrfctChaos
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Re: Open Fuse

Postby PrfctChaos » Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:18 am

Come on guys, just buy a 100 cm or 70 cm gong mast and we'll use that as the standard. It is well priced and includes a fuse. Also, their cheap alu mast / fusilage has the same fit, and can be bought cheaply or used to do the wing socket moulding. We do not need to re-invent the wheel. Just need to choose a good, inexpensive, high quality existing product as a base. And everyone can afford a gong alu setup and upgrade to the Pre-preg carbon for a bit extra as well.

If you want a underslung or overslung setup, or have a shimmable stab. It is just a case of making your stabilirer perch / mounting / socket a seperate part and then the stabiliser wing a seperate part. Then shim to your hearts content.

fluidity
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Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby fluidity » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:27 am

airsail wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:27 am
Over slung is the way to go. I have early Lift foils, the ones with the triangular fuselage. Both the wing and stab are underslung which works fine as the wing is very thin, 11mm. Now the issue is with larger custom wings, the wake from the thicker front wing impacts the stab, you feel a constant rumble through the foil.
I have managed to fix the rumble by shimming the front wing nose down slightly to move the wake from the wing away from the stab. But, although I silenced the foil I got some undesirable stability issues. I have opted for a very slight rumble but good stability.
If the stab was mounted on top of the fuselage there would be no problem.
Interesting to hear, opposite dihedral/anhedrals would help there too, to limit the wake cross-over regions.
I read somewhere on the foil forum about sanding a top rear strip on the trailing edge lightly with 600 grit for a couple of cm to enforce turbulent separation and improve release, that might help too.

fluidity
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Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Open Fuse

Postby fluidity » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:02 am

PrfctChaos wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:18 am
Come on guys, just buy a 100 cm or 70 cm gong mast and we'll use that as the standard. It is well priced and includes a fuse. Also, their cheap alu mast / fusilage has the same fit, and can be bought cheaply or used to do the wing socket moulding. We do not need to re-invent the wheel. Just need to choose a good, inexpensive, high quality existing product as a base. And everyone can afford a gong alu setup and upgrade to the Pre-preg carbon for a bit extra as well.

If you want a underslung or overslung setup, or have a shimmable stab. It is just a case of making your stabilirer perch / mounting / socket a seperate part and then the stabiliser wing a seperate part. Then shim to your hearts content.
Gong was certainly the winner on both economy and complexity when I listed all the brands I knew of on the first page of this.
My main concern is that for prototyping a rear socket is bad for stabiliser angle adjustment.
In the foil I designed, I fabricated my stabiliser as a 1/2 scale copy of my front wing and started with the rear wing inverted but both wings at 0º angle of attack. That wasn't enough to lift the bow of the board in motion , I tried angling the front of the rear wing down 1.5º degrees, still not enough and I've currently got it at 3º which feels about right. I've seen it recommended to trim the stabiliser very slightly to adjust the foot balance positions to match footstrap placements. This could be provided for a Gong fuselage by prototyping a rear wing with a front socket a few mm higher than the square cross-section and then making wedges at different angles to offset the fuselage plug in the socket. It's king of clunky but easy enough though it would leave a small mismatch at the end of the socket to the join. I have no issues with the structural fit, I think a wing created with sockets for a Gong fuselage should have uncompromised strength if the laminations are continuous over the wing and socket's outside surfaces.

A lesser concern is simply function and aesthetics, we don't need the same strength and thickness for the rear of the fuselage.

Personally I think only the front connection is super important, it's taking weight of ourself and the board and shock loadings, torque loadings. Rear stabiliser can be over slung and doesn't need the strength of socketing. Or if it is, why not use a mast/front wing section fuselage with a hole in the back to take a 10 mm or 12mm glass fibre rod to extend out to the stabiliser?
The slight bendiness will permit easier foil pumping and turn radius control.
And the wing can be overslung with a semi-socket 3D printed for different stabiliser angles. Or directly socketed once the ideal angle is known.

PrfctChaos: have you got any dimensions for a Gong fuselage?

PrfctChaos
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Re: Open Fuse

Postby PrfctChaos » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:26 am

I ordered a 70cm carbon and Veloce large for prone foiling. But it is still hung-up in the post system unfortunately. Will be able to take measurements when it hopefully arrives in the next week or two. I am planning to use that 70cm mast as my base for future wings.

Have a look at this Go-foil website for what I mean by using a pedestal for the stabiliser. Go foil have some stabilisers that are fixed (and fit straight onto the fusilage socket) these cannot be adjusted. And then they have a another type, where a pedestal fits onto the fuselage socket (this can be different lengths) and then the stabiliser screws onto the pedestal, which allows shimming of the stab.

https://www.gofoil.com/tail-wings/

fluidity
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Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Open Fuse

Postby fluidity » Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:49 am

PrfctChaos wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:26 am
I ordered a 70cm carbon and Veloce large for prone foiling. But it is still hung-up in the post system unfortunately. Will be able to take measurements when it hopefully arrives in the next week or two. I am planning to use that 70cm mast as my base for future wings.

Have a look at this Go-foil website for what I mean by using a pedestal for the stabiliser. Go foil have some stabilisers that are fixed (and fit straight onto the fusilage socket) these cannot be adjusted. And then they have a another type, where a pedestal fits onto the fuselage socket (this can be different lengths) and then the stabiliser screws onto the pedestal, which allows shimming of the stab.

https://www.gofoil.com/tail-wings/
Thanks, Measurements would be fantastic!

Has anyone tried a slightly flexing mast to stabiliser fuselage section? I'm quite keen on this idea, here's an example of what i'm thinking of:
https://www.fibreglassshop.co.nz/produc ... 0BEALw_wcB

And here's a prototype that would be similar to what a manufacturer or DIYer would make. The fibreglass rod inserts into the open end and allows flexing of the stabiliser to improve agility of the setup.
Attachments
GliderBody.PNG

dirk8037
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Measure Gong Fuselage

Postby dirk8037 » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:38 pm

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fluidity (Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:50 am)
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fluidity
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Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Measure Gong Fuselage

Postby fluidity » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:11 am

Thanks Dirk.
I'm surprised at some things on that drawing..
The mast socket is only 15mm deep and yet there is another 15mm depth in fuselage, surely they could have routed deeper?
There are big steps from the stabiliser and wing connection profiles to the full mid section profile. These provide fracture prone points where the thin and thick sections meet.

By the chord of the mast socket it looks like the gong mast may be close to an aliexpress 3-holes mast I bought which measures 109.45mm x 14.75mm x cut height. My F-One mast chord is 114.27mm, thickness 16.24mm.

dirk8037
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Re: Open Fuse

Postby dirk8037 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:04 pm

Hi, this is not from me.
i basically had that in my mind for the same reason you opened this here.
Got an Alpine Access but the mast is already to wobbly, the fuse a bit too lethal and bigger wing sizes more tailored for tiny french (want a Wing&pumpfoil on the same rig for 90kg). So same thoughts of getting something more open.

So I have no Idea if the meassures are correct to a 1/10 mm.

But the steps, yeah, its cheap to produce and aluminium.
I guess if you would do that as a woodcore with carbon you would run into troubles for the reason you pointed out.
I envisioned a fluent transformation from thin to not as thick as te original, maybe with a printed cover or some spackle.
The problem with having not the step is, that on teh wing side you either make the end of the intake super thin not to have step on the otherside, which makes it fragile or much longer since you need some beef to hold a bigger wing.

Dirk

fluidity
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Posts: 255
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Open Fuse

Postby fluidity » Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:08 am

dirk8037 wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:04 pm
<cut>
I envisioned a fluent transformation from thin to not as thick as te original, maybe with a printed cover or some spackle.
The problem with having not the step is, that on teh wing side you either make the end of the intake super thin not to have step on the otherside, which makes it fragile or much longer since you need some beef to hold a bigger wing.
Dirk
Agree. I don't like that lip as part of the composites. I think the answer is to make the smooth transition version and then overmould to shape the lip. That way if done in composites or alloy, the lip plays no part in stress dynamics. Printed cover is easy enough when the design is open to everyone to copy.

At the moment I'm thinking a 3D printed core with about 2mm clearance for composites in the cup around the mast foot and about 3mm mould clearance for composites to wrap around the printed core. Combination of unidirectional and braid.
I'm heavy though and learning wing surf foiling which has wide wings and high torque loadings.

These guys do braid and sleeve in carbon though their stocks are currently down with corona virus issues in the USA, I'm waiting on some heatshrink and glass braid from him at the moment:
https://www.sollercomposites.com/CarbonSleeves.html
https://www.sollercomposites.com/UNI.html


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