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High wind foiling

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PugetSoundKiter
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Re: High wind foiling

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:55 am

Reading about small LEI kites for hydrofoil riding but saw these in the Kitesurfing/Kiteboarding Forum

Small kite 3-4m2 that does not deform under load
viewtopic.php?t=2411457&p=1152200

Drifter 4 or 5 as smallest kite?
viewtopic.php?p=1024412#p1024412

I know wind charts are not necessary accurate, variables like rider weight, board size/type, bar lines, etc… but for people who have used small wave kites and small no-strut/1-strut kites, wondering what do you like and why.

I found some <5m smallest advertised kite wind ranges

Slingshot
0-Strut – UFO V1.1 – 3m = 15-42 Kts (Assume 15Kts=HF, 42=TT)
1-Strut – Ghost V1 – 2.5m = 25-42 Kts (Assume TT/SB)
3-Strut – SST V6 – 4m = 29-40 Kts (Assume TT/SB)

Duotone
1-Strut – Mono – 3.5m = 17-33 Kts (HF)
1-Strut – Mono – 3.5m = 27-41 Kts (TT)

North
3-Strut – Reach – 3m = 25-40 Kts (TT)

Cabrinha
1-Strut – Contra – 3m = 15-30 Kts (HF)
1-Strut – Contra – 3m = 22-30 Kts (TT/SB)
3-Strut – Drifter – 4m = 23-37 Kts (SB)

Using Cabrinha example, comparing surfboard ranges it looks like:
3m Contra = 6m Drifter
4m Contra = 8m Drifter
5m Contra = 10m Drifter
So would a 4m Drifter be similar to a 2m Contra using a surfboard (and a hydrofoil)?
4mDrifter.jpg
Question:
Would you prefer a 3m Contra (1 strut) or a 4m Drifter (3 strut) in high winds on a hydrofoil (or not) & why?
Or a similar comparison would be, you prefer the 2.5m Ghost (1 strut) or 4m SST (3 strut) in high winds on a hydrofoil (or not) & why?

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby purdyd » Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:54 pm

I have a 3m and 5m ufo and a 4m ghost and a 5 and 6m 3 strut evo.

I have friends with drifters, monos. and flown the mono.

I think some of the low aspect single no strut kites you can get away with a meter less kite than the three strut kites. No way there is 3meters difference, Cabrinha.

I’d also say the low end of the 3m kite is a bit optimistic and I generally fly smaller than most. I would add a couple of knots.

A 3m ufo doesn’t really work until 18 knots.

I prefer the no strut kites if I am riding swells and waves, the drift and just as importantly depower better as you can build a significant amount of speed and apparent wind on a wave face.

The 3m ufo is pretty wild as there is enough wind when you are flying it to aggressively go down the line on a wave and still fly drift the kite.

I think the three strut kites have more range and usually ride upwind better and are best when you want to go fast and or jump.

I feel like a lot of companies don’t understand higher wind foiling and you can see that from their kite sizing. Even slingshot, there is a huge move from the 5m ufo to the 3m ufo. Thankfully they’ve added a 4m in there next iteration.

BRM has the most rational kite sizing as they have proportional drops and suitably small kites.
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Re: High wind foiling

Postby Jyoder » Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:49 pm

What is high winds? When people are riding big surf foils with 3m-4m kite in 18-25knots, is that high winds? I’m still on 6m then with small freeride/race foil.

Now, when it’s smoking 25-35g45 knots with big choppy swell where you have to calculate orbital re-entry with pen and paper just to waterstart without getting yarded, then it’s high wind.

Current kite: 4m SST on 20m lines, 75kg on strapless race foil. I’ve moved away from strutless and Peak4 because their upper range isn’t enough for the local wind high/low variation when wind is truely high.
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Re: High wind foiling

Postby Tony » Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:57 pm

My favorite high wind kite is the CA Firefly 2.5m. I go to this when the wind average is hitting 23+ knots.
I fly Airush Ultra's in lighter winds and also larger Firefly's.
The Firefly's soak up the gusts and are more comfortable to ride as the wind ramps up.
Have been out when it is hitting low 30's and been very happy.
Other people are foiling on 4's and 5's when I'm on the 2.5.

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby elguapo » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:43 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:07 pm
Up to what wind speed do you choose to foil in ... and what gear do you use in higher winds?

In the course of this year I have gradually been increasing the amount of wind I will foil in. A few days ago I went out in around 20 knots - the strongest wind I had foiled in up to that point. I pumped a 5m wave kite. It was OK at first, but the wind steadily picked up & peaked at around 30 knots. It was not much fun, as I was seriously overpowered riding upwind & not really able to take advantage of riding the swell back down wind because there was so much pull in the kite even when depowered to the max.

What wind is still fun to foil in? How does a really small kite: 2.5 to 4m - feel in those conditions?
i use the smallest kite i can find.. that is the simply solution to potentially being over powered.
i believe i'm on a 4m by 16 knots... and then a 3m not long after...
i have a baby cloud i found used... for when 3m starts pulling too much... but i have yet to use it (didnt see a hurricane this year)


my desire is simply for the kite to try to be relatively stable.
to not..for example...dive between gusts and get eaten by a wave at the worst time.
in tropical storms/hurricane winds... i've had kites invert (but luckily revert 100% of the time)..but more or less the kites have not been issues.

i'm not a jumper.. i just wanna play in the rollers
in higher winds (30+ knots) the limitation to has always been getting off shore.. the surf breaks can get gigantic
washing machine conditions are actually kinda fun... challenging...but fun.

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby jumptheshark » Thu Oct 21, 2021 2:12 pm

Turned 50 and my high wind limit spontaneously dropped from 40 to 35 knots! I find anything over sustained 30-32 to be a little much on a 3m peak on 11m lines. You can certainly ride safely enough in the gusts, but its all about checking your speed kite high carrying half your weight. Can be fun just to be out in those big conditions, but its nothing like ripping wherever and however you want.

High wind is relative and for foiling I count anything that requires my smallest kite. For me, that't 24 knots and up.

Last year there were only a couple of days that I felt overpowered.

Likely just my age, but I'm happy to sit out 40+ days. As it is, there are only a few familiar faces that show up when its approaching 30 knots. Many of my high wind days are solo and I still get butterflies when its well and truly 30 knots.

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby irwe » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:10 pm

Tony wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:57 pm
My favorite high wind kite is the CA Firefly 2.5m. I go to this when the wind average is hitting 23+ knots.
I fly Airush Ultra's in lighter winds and also larger Firefly's.
The Firefly's soak up the gusts and are more comfortable to ride as the wind ramps up.
Have been out when it is hitting low 30's and been very happy.
Other people are foiling on 4's and 5's when I'm on the 2.5.
What line length do you have for your CA FF 2.5 m for 23 kts+ ?

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby Tony » Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:31 pm

irwe wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:10 pm
What line length do you have for your CA FF 2.5 m for 23 kts+ ?
I ride 22m all the time. Mostly on the Ketos Kloud 1000cm2.

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby Flyboy » Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:06 pm

Flyboy wrote:
Wed Oct 14, 2020 6:07 pm
Up to what wind speed do you choose to foil in ... and what gear do you use in higher winds?

In the course of this year I have gradually been increasing the amount of wind I will foil in. A few days ago I went out in around 20 knots - the strongest wind I had foiled in up to that point. I pumped a 5m wave kite. It was OK at first, but the wind steadily picked up & peaked at around 30 knots. It was not much fun, as I was seriously overpowered riding upwind & not really able to take advantage of riding the swell back down wind because there was so much pull in the kite even when depowered to the max.

What wind is still fun to foil in? How does a really small kite: 2.5 to 4m - feel in those conditions?

In answer to my OP made a year ago ... this past year there hasn't been much "high wind" locally at all. However (as I posted in the Peak4 thread), I just had two days with solid 25 knot winds. I used my 3.5 Boxer with 20 metre lines & Gong Curve M wing. I had tried the Boxer a few times previously with not much success: the winds when I tried were probably around 20 knots - a little strong for my 4m Peak. Although I was able to ride once I managed to get up on the foil, water starting was very, very difficult with the kite back stalling ferociously as soon as I tried to put any weight on the bar. The answer was 20cm + pig tails to lengthen the back lines ... & more wind.

Having got used to flying my Peak 6m & 4m this summer, the Boxer was a significant adjustment. I don't know what the 3m Peak is like, but the 4m is very predictable & very easy to control through the turns. In comparison the 3.5 Boxer is very fast & zippy, & very sensitive to sheeting & positioning. It requires a lot of attention to keep the kite in the right place in the power zone. However, during my sessions, the more powered up it was the easier it was to use. I would imagine it would be comfortable to use up to 30 knots & beyond.

The other revelation is, that with another year of foiling behind me, controlling the foil in choppy, wavy, white-watery, turbulent conditions is much easier than it used to be. With time, making the micro adjustments required to balance the foil become more & more instinctive.

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Re: High wind foiling

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:06 am

purdyd wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 7:41 pm
papasmerf wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 3:43 am
i was actually trying to avoid looping the kite down low in the window like that. i just got a 4m ghost for higher winds but someone who i respect says it has same power as 5m ufo,,,so now what, geez
The 4m ghost does NOT have the same power as the 5m ufo. The 4m ghost slots in nicely between the 5m and 3m ufo. But it is not the same as a ufo. It boggles my mind that there is not a 4m ufo. The beauty of the strutless design is you can truly feather out the kite which is very handy on a wave face. If I am getting a lot of flutter in turns that is a sign I can go down in size, I’d rather fly the smaller kite.
Thanks. If the 1-Strut 4m slots nicely between the 3m & 5m 3-Strut, then I’d guess the 1 and 3 strut kites are similar in range. Or maybe this is just the case for the small Evo and Ghost.
purdyd wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:54 pm
I have a 3m and 5m ufo and a 4m ghost and a 5 and 6m 3 strut evo. I have friends with drifters, monos. and flown the mono. I think some of the low aspect single no strut kites you can get away with a meter less kite than the three strut kites. No way there is 3meters difference, Cabrinha. I’d also say the low end of the 3m kite is a bit optimistic and I generally fly smaller than most. I would add a couple of knots. A 3m ufo doesn’t really work until 18 knots. I prefer the no strut kites if I am riding swells and waves, the drift and just as importantly depower better as you can build a significant amount of speed and apparent wind on a wave face. The 3m ufo is pretty wild as there is enough wind when you are flying it to aggressively go down the line on a wave and still fly drift the kite. I think the three strut kites have more range and usually ride upwind better and are best when you want to go fast and or jump. I feel like a lot of companies don’t understand higher wind foiling and you can see that from their kite sizing. Even slingshot, there is a huge move from the 5m ufo to the 3m ufo. Thankfully they’ve added a 4m in there next iteration. BRM has the most rational kite sizing as they have proportional drops and suitably small kites.
Agree, BRM has it sorted out. Sounds like for hydrofoiling, strutless might be the way to go for small size LEIs, able to catch you in the lulls and quicker to turn or generate a burst of power. Best to have same type and all sizes 5m, 4m, 3m. Read the same for Peak users that they suggest for that 1 type getting a 5m, 4m, 3m. Mixing 3-Strut, 1-Strut, No-Strut or Foil kites just adds overlap and confusion (like my post at the top of this page) on the beach when deciding to size up or down.



Now, I'm looking for some tips on getting out past the shore-break juggling the kite in high wind with a full length mast foil. Good topic for a How-To/Tips video for kiters, not for wingers. Body dragging out is not fun. Once out past the break it's manageable. Once up, it's worth it, I'm getting hooked on foiling the waves!
:surf:


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