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Why are Kites so damn expensive

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wakijis
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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby wakijis » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:49 pm

Long time reader of the forum and now finally the need to write something made me create an account.
kitesurfpro wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:19 pm
Just looked at the facts for 2021 models. Below all 9 meters at our local dealers:

North Reach: 1.479
Naish Pivot: 1.479
F-One Bandit: 1.469
Duotone Evo: 1.439
Slingshot RPX v1: 1.400
Reedin Supermodel v2: 1.349
Airush Ultra v4: 1.199
Maybe you want to ask your local dealer why he is selling a kite for 1349 while he is paying roughtly 660 for it. I wonder how much he pays for the other ones listed.
I also wonder how much the company pays for the production of the kite in china and how high the material cost are in the end. If you cut it down: same margin for reatailer, company and producer you´ll end up with your life hanging on 150 bucks of material.
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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby bragnouff » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:57 pm

downunder wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:10 pm
bragnouff wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:27 am
mr_daruman wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:55 pm
Sewn pieces of easily rip able/punctured <ripstop> fabric with an oversized fragile condom and held by four strings and all of it not lasting two years of weekly riding is in my book OVERLY expensive.
Whatever the maker kites shouldn't be more than 1000$ for ALL sizes. Bars at over 500$ is even more outrageous.
Well, it starts with a large number of hours of labour to put a kite together... So, maybe we could bring back slavery or force children to sew kites instead of making Nike shoes, but having some qualified staff and reasonable work conditions typically leads to a better quality product. So despite being produced in SE Asia where labour costs are relatively cheap, there is still a substantial cost in terms of manufacturing. The factory will sell the product with a margin, because they have to earn a living, otherwise they'd just close and do something else to survive.
Then, there are shipping costs, distribution costs, marketing costs (including sponsoring top riders), R&D costs, and many men in the middle who all need to make a profit along the way. So it's no surprise that the price you pay is not the price of the materials or the price out of the factory door.
Ummm,

If making the LEI kite is THAT expensive, than making a foil kite would be 3 times more expensive at least. FS is making foils in the EU, so labour cost is 10x, plus 5x time to make it.

But the FS foil kite is not 10x more than LEI made in China or Sri Lanka.

Which sounds to me LEIs are overpriced due to something. What is that? A paint maybe? ;)

Graphics? Than Ozone is way overpriced due to no graphics at all :)

Something somewhere does not match. Cordura used for LE and struts is not that pricey. foils have double canopy, heaps internal support, no PU valves but they are cheap anyway. To make bladders and fit it in is not huge expense.

Again, labour for foil is 3-5 times of LEI. Same extra hidden costs. Are they making loss on foils? I dont think so.

What takes of profit is the management expense, board members, etc. Cut that and bang. Epic does that. Kev does it. So they should be in the position to sell for less, not more.

I dont think Epic has a huge building with a number of employees. But than Epic does not sell that many kites either. Both will be in AU like a hens teeth...
Good point. Not too sure how Flysurfer does it. Or exactly how much more work there is to make a foil instead of an LEI (are you sure it's 3-5 times as much?). Surely a lot more stitching involved, but maybe less steps to go through, less different bits and bobs to source. I'm sure a fair bit of the labour is automated, at least with laser cutting of panels, which offsets the human labour cost difference. And maybe if you produce in Europe (your main target market) in your own factory, you get to save on some middle men, and custom tariffs across the whole supply chain. Are the Flysurfer tube kites and wings also made in EU? How are they priced compared to the rest?
And Pansh also sells foils at a fraction of the price of FS. Probably about the same amount of labour, is the price difference just due to skimping on the R&D, marketing and quality control?

And assuming that the product out of the factory costs 3x more, it doesn't necessarily mean that the end price will be 3x as well. Some of the shipping and distribution costs are mostly the same whether the end product is cheap or expensive, and taxes and duties are on a percentage basis.

And of course, lots of trimming can be done on the business structure, keep it lean and small, do small production runs, avoid overproducing and liquidating stock, ...

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby downunder » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01 am

CNC cutting I assume is the same in every factory.

Any foil kite has heaps more panels than LEI. If we look at how LEI valves are done on the sewing machine, it literally takes 30 seconds to do ONE valve. Average LEI has 1 to 12. So it can't be that, correct? Sewing panels can't be simply coz skilled technicians are ultra fast, hence way way less sewing time than for foil. So lastly bladders. And paint.
But than we have foils with a bridles which is a mess to make and attach compared to LEI. Heaps of labour.

FS sells across the Planet just like any other brand. Except shipping from Pansh in China is free, so that can't eat the profit and the real cost is about US30. This is how much I've paid.

So with all of that I assume the FS foil kite to make would be 3-5 times more than LEI from China or even LEI from the EU.

Hence LEI's are way overpriced compared to foils. Due to a "paint" since everything else is equal.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby bragnouff » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:16 am

downunder wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:01 am
CNC cutting I assume is the same in every factory.

Any foil kite has heaps more panels than LEI. If we look at how LEI valves are done on the sewing machine, it literally takes 30 seconds to do ONE valve. Average LEI has 1 to 12. So it can't be that, correct? Sewing panels can't be simply coz skilled technicians are ultra fast, hence way way less sewing time than for foil. So lastly bladders. And paint.
But than we have foils with a bridles which is a mess to make and attach compared to LEI. Heaps of labour.

FS sells across the Planet just like any other brand. Except shipping from Pansh in China is free, so that can't eat the profit and the real cost is about US30. This is how much I've paid.

So with all of that I assume the FS foil kite to make would be 3-5 times more than LEI from China or even LEI from the EU.

Hence LEI's are way overpriced compared to foils. Due to a "paint" since everything else is equal.
Flysurfer foil kites have paint too! Logos and printed sizes, etc... Nothing much different (at least compared to brands who use sobriety in their graphics).
Making bladders, welding the valves, fitting the bladders into the kite, connecting all the one-pump hoses and clips, then inflating the kites, and leaving them for something like 24hrs in factory space to ensure they stay inflated, all this is time and space consuming. And it involves materials too. I can't agree that this is insignificant.

The foil has lots of work on pretty much the same task, which is sewing and assembling cells, then also one other massive task, which is attaching the bridles. Whereas the LEI has probably lots of much smaller different tasks. Involving more of a production line, different stations, different machines, etc...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend the industry and accept a generalized price gouging, I just want to explain a bit the complexity involved in making a LEI kite, essentially as reaction to an overly simplistic view of one of the posters. I'm no expert or industry insider, but I've seen a few docos and articles about kite production. Clearly not a simple task.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby BE_Kiter » Wed May 12, 2021 9:57 am

wakijis wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:49 pm
Long time reader of the forum and now finally the need to write something made me create an account.
kitesurfpro wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:19 pm
Just looked at the facts for 2021 models. Below all 9 meters at our local dealers:

North Reach: 1.479
Naish Pivot: 1.479
F-One Bandit: 1.469
Duotone Evo: 1.439
Slingshot RPX v1: 1.400
Reedin Supermodel v2: 1.349
Airush Ultra v4: 1.199
Maybe you want to ask your local dealer why he is selling a kite for 1349 while he is paying roughtly 660 for it. I wonder how much he pays for the other ones listed.
I also wonder how much the company pays for the production of the kite in china and how high the material cost are in the end. If you cut it down: same margin for reatailer, company and producer you´ll end up with your life hanging on 150 bucks of material.
The question was not "why are kites so damn expensive"
The question was: "Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive"


Answer: It is not compared to others!
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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby chaosgate » Wed May 12, 2021 2:26 pm

downunder wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:10 pm
If making the LEI kite is THAT expensive, than making a foil kite would be 3 times more expensive at least. FS is making foils in the EU, so labour cost is 10x, plus 5x time to make it.

But the FS foil kite is not 10x more than LEI made in China or Sri Lanka.
As far as I can tell, FS makes their kites in Vietnam -- the customs paperwork for my Sonic3 at least said so. Only their boards are EU. So their kite labor cost should be similar per hour as other brands.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby tautologies » Wed May 12, 2021 6:19 pm

I generally take these posts as a frustration of the kite price reaching a price where it hurts a bit. OP probably want a new kite and it is expensive enough for him to have to think about it.
The fact is that it is costly to produce products for small markets. Kiteboarding is not a big industry. The margins in the value chain and industry are not that big.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby iriejohn » Wed May 12, 2021 7:26 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:35 am
Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 am
I got nothing against Kevin, but I wouldn't pay a cent more for a kite "made" by him compared to someone else. Why would I?
Image.
:lol:

Says he who believes that even when unnecessary we should keep wearing boots because:
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:58 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:45 pm
Agree iriejohn, it is utterly bullocks and only Matteo V's own way and nothing but that.

C'mon see the full picture instead of pushing your own sometimes very odd behavior onto everybody else.

Speak for yourself instead, thanks.

We are all different and has different riding spots and preferences, and many choose different than you.

Got nothing to do with being cool or not, that's for sure :thumb:

8) Peter
I kite a few pristine beaches as well. And most other kiters do go without booties there, though some like me do still use them. Thinking about this, there is a 5th reason to always wear booties:

5. Consistency

If one day I kite at a dirty beach, then the next at a pristine beach, I have to change my straps to account for booties vs bare feet. And as the distance from the bottom of my foot to the planning surface changes, that lever arm becomes a variable from one location to another. Given that small changes in geometry can throw you off even more than large ones, well in regards to performance, eliminating variables increases performance.
:lol:

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby Matteo V » Wed May 12, 2021 9:46 pm

iriejohn wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:26 pm
Matteo V wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:35 am
Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 am
I got nothing against Kevin, but I wouldn't pay a cent more for a kite "made" by him compared to someone else. Why would I?
Image.
:lol:

Says he who believes that even when unnecessary we should keep wearing boots because:
Matteo V wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:58 pm
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:45 pm
Agree iriejohn, it is utterly bullocks and only Matteo V's own way and nothing but that.

C'mon see the full picture instead of pushing your own sometimes very odd behavior onto everybody else.

Speak for yourself instead, thanks.

We are all different and has different riding spots and preferences, and many choose different than you.

Got nothing to do with being cool or not, that's for sure :thumb:

8) Peter
I kite a few pristine beaches as well. And most other kiters do go without booties there, though some like me do still use them. Thinking about this, there is a 5th reason to always wear booties:

5. Consistency

If one day I kite at a dirty beach, then the next at a pristine beach, I have to change my straps to account for booties vs bare feet. And as the distance from the bottom of my foot to the planning surface changes, that lever arm becomes a variable from one location to another. Given that small changes in geometry can throw you off even more than large ones, well in regards to performance, eliminating variables increases performance.
:lol:
Could you maybe try to explain your point? I'll clarify what I said:

In the first quote, I answered "image", because a few kiters do choose gear based on criteria not actually linked to performance. However, I do not do this. I consider myself more utilitarian than most. I make choices based on performance alone.

In the second quote, I made a case for consistency of feel actually increasing performance due to a single "muscle memory" being easier to refine as opposed to multiple different "muscle memories" being very difficult to manage.

I belive you have misinterpreted what I have stated. Both of those quotes are mutually supported.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby dice » Thu May 13, 2021 6:48 am

wakijis wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:49 pm
Long time reader of the forum and now finally the need to write something made me create an account.

Maybe you want to ask your local dealer why he is selling a kite for 1349 while he is paying roughtly 660 for it. I wonder how much he pays for the other ones listed.
I also wonder how much the company pays for the production of the kite in china and how high the material cost are in the end. If you cut it down: same margin for reatailer, company and producer you´ll end up with your life hanging on 150 bucks of material.
This is simply how the world works. The material is only a little part of the costs.
You have manhours, R&D, transport, storage, administration, taxes, profit, ...
I'm still amazed about how little people know about this.
Look at restaurants, look at how much you have to pay there and look at how much you have to pay when you make it yourself at home.
Huge price difference right? Wow they must be scammers then, the material cost is so little :roll:

The world runs on demand and supply.


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