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Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Dave_5280 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 7:42 am

I always liked Pat’s videos explaining the design changes they made to each kite to improve performance each model year. I hope they start doing those again now that he’s back at Cabrinha.

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Havre » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:17 am

Blackened wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:08 am
BE_Kiter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:29 pm
That said will the North 2023 kites be totally different kites?
They'll be different. Pat Goodman was a one man show doing everything, whereas now there is a team with more time to tweak and probably more time available for testing/rider feedback.

Unless they completely change the materials, there is no need for a drastic redesign of a winning kite in the current competition format. However, if big air continues to evolve into less technical loops with more airstyle type tricks, you'll definitely see a redesign for more hangtime and less loopability.
Would it be possible to make a kite that jumps high easily (like the Rebel) while still being faster without necessarily being a good looping kite? Being fast and looping might be connected?

From my experience, most people jumping are not doing hardcore looping, but they might find something like the Rebel too slow (at least in the bigger sizes). I guess I'm in that category.

In some ways the Orbit seems to be designed for extremely high end riders. Maybe you have alluded to that as well on here? Apologies if I remember incorrectly, but some did. So fools like me might end up buying a kite that pro riders can go high on, but the rest of us would be better off with a different kite?

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Kamikuza » Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 am

Havre wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:17 am
Blackened wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:08 am
BE_Kiter wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:29 pm
That said will the North 2023 kites be totally different kites?
They'll be different. Pat Goodman was a one man show doing everything, whereas now there is a team with more time to tweak and probably more time available for testing/rider feedback.

Unless they completely change the materials, there is no need for a drastic redesign of a winning kite in the current competition format. However, if big air continues to evolve into less technical loops with more airstyle type tricks, you'll definitely see a redesign for more hangtime and less loopability.
Would it be possible to make a kite that jumps high easily (like the Rebel) while still being faster without necessarily being a good looping kite? Being fast and looping might be connected?

From my experience, most people jumping are not doing hardcore looping, but they might find something like the Rebel too slow (at least in the bigger sizes). I guess I'm in that category.

In some ways the Orbit seems to be designed for extremely high end riders. Maybe you have alluded to that as well on here? Apologies if I remember incorrectly, but some did. So fools like me might end up buying a kite that pro riders can go high on, but the rest of us would be better off with a different kite?
I'd consider a Rebel but those rubber bunnies that the steering lines connect to just put me right off...

I'm tempted to pull my Crossbows out again :D

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Blackened » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:38 pm

Havre wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:17 am
Would it be possible to make a kite that jumps high easily (like the Rebel) while still being faster without necessarily being a good looping kite? Being fast and looping might be connected?
I'm not a kite designer, but I think you always need to make compromises on one attribute versus another. Undoubtedly some attributes go hand in hand - so if you modify the leading edge diameter, it'll make the kite faster and more reactive, but less stable, so you can modify the bridle design to compensate (I made this up, I have no idea what I'm talking about). https://www.kitemana.com/info/blog/kite ... asics-1219
Havre wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:17 am
From my experience, most people jumping are not doing hardcore looping, but they might find something like the Rebel too slow (at least in the bigger sizes). I guess I'm in that category.
I agree. I'm there as well. Personally, I think a megaloop is defined as >10m and sub 15 degrees off horizontal. Anything else is just a powered kiteloop. I've done maybe 5 of those, and more accidentally than purposely. Basically, pulled really early, didn't crank the bar trying to force it low, and accidentally went higher than I thought I was going to :D.
Havre wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:17 am
In some ways the Orbit seems to be designed for extremely high end riders. Maybe you have alluded to that as well on here? Apologies if I remember incorrectly, but some did. So fools like me might end up buying a kite that pro riders can go high on, but the rest of us would be better off with a different kite?
Orbit is just not for beginners. Intermediate riders are fine on it. It just stalls really easily. The vast majority of people on the Orbit here fit into that intermediate category.

However, if you're a general intermediate TT freerider/booster, there's is no point in buying an Orbit. It jumps well, but a Rebel/XR/Edge jumps higher with less effort. Buy one of those. Want to look like a gnarly pro doing big loops with your intermediate skill level? Buy an Orbit. It basically makes looping accessible for the masses. (sizes <11m - I've never ridden the 12 or 14m).
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Tony in FL
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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Tony in FL » Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 pm

With Pat leaving North and the popularity of the Orbit it will be interesting to see what he does next. Cabrinha already has two "do it all" kites - the Moto and Switchblade. The Moto is a freeride kite with emphasis on foiling and surf while the Switchblade is a freeride kite with emphasis on big air. The Switchblade has such a big following that Cabrinha may be hesitant to make big changes to it (which may even have been part of the reason that they came up with the Moto as a different model kite).

It seems like Pat would want to bring over some of his Orbit magic to Cabrinha. But how to do so is an interesting question. Does he start messing with the flight characteristics of the Switchblade, and risk upsetting the masses of Switchblade riders? Or does he start reworking the Moto (seems unlikely since its strengths have been more about foiling and surf)? Or does he come up with yet another kite model (this seems unlikely as the Switchblade is already marketed as a big air kite)?

Perhaps he will go the route of subtle changes to the Switchblade for improvement and bigger air. I think the Orbit already has plenty of Switchblade DNA in it as when I demoed one I felt it had a Swtichblade feel to it.
Last edited by Tony in FL on Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby nothing2seehere » Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:05 pm

Kamikuza wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:06 am

I'd consider a Rebel but those rubber bunnies that the steering lines connect to just put me right off...
Out of interest why?

The rubber bungies are only there to help prevent the lines getting caught in the wing tip to make relaunch easier. I flew an older Rebel without them and it makes no difference to the flying characteristics - and that was the generation of Rebels that used to invert through the front lines as soon as it touched the water (2009). I had thought the bungy was removed when they became duotone kites but it seems they are still on my 2019 but I hadn't even noticed. The old rebels I've owned have generally all had working bungies even 6 or 7 years old so from a maintenance point of view they don't seem to be an unreliable part.

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Sun » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:22 pm

Tony in FL wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 pm
With Pat leaving North and the popularity of the Orbit it will be interesting to see what he does next. Cabrinha already has two "do it all" kites - the Moto and Switchblade. The Moto is a freeride kite with emphasis on foiling and surf while the Switchblade is a freeride kite with emphasis on big air. The Switchblade has such a big following that Cabrinha may be hesitant to make big changes to it (which may even have been part of the reason that they came up with the Moto as a different model kite).

It seems like Pat would want to bring over some of his Orbit magic to Cabrinha. But how to do so is an interesting question. Does he start messing with the flight characteristics of the Switchblade, and risk upsetting the masses of Switchblade riders? Or does he start reworking the Moto (seems unlikely since its strengths have been more about foiling and surf)? Or does he come up with yet another kite model (this seems unlikely as the Switchblade is already marketed as a big air kite)?

Perhaps he will go the route of subtle changes to the Switchblade for improvement and bigger air. I think the Orbit already has plenty of Switchblade DNA in it as when I demoed one I felt it had a Swtichblade feel to it.
They tried resurrecting the Crossbow with the AV8, so there is that he can tweak. There is also the FX to play with if they bring back the Chaos for the wake group. Or new kite, Cab seems to have enough designers for a broad lineup.

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby tautologies » Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:28 pm

sarc wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:48 am
For example if you don't need pulleys WTF are you putting pulleys on your kites (looking at you Duotone). Bridles and bar lines that are not made of toilet paper (looking at you Duotone).

If they lose focus and start playing specmanship in the brochures... hello Naish????
:lol: :lol:
I remember buying an old EVO when North was Duotone...ehh no wait...I mean when the now Duotone was North..it had battens...damn shitty silly battens. It made the kite way harder to pack away and it made me wonder if the designer had OCD, because the fluttering they must have tried to avoid must have been minor.

Yeah Naish is good at naming design features, but it doesn't feel like it is featurism to me, just good old product evolution. This year they have made the kite lighter by removing stuff. I do think they had a hilarious warning on their harnesses...something along the lines of "although you might look like a king wearing this harness in the pool it is not a floatation device".

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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby tegirinenashi » Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:36 pm

Tony in FL wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 pm
... I think the Orbit already has plenty of Switchblade DNA in it as when I demoed one I felt it had a Swtichblade feel to it.
What is projective area of SB and Orbit respectively? If it's the same, then their arc shape is the same, and it is essentially the same kite.



They also don't publish the AR numbers, but as the glorious reviewer at KiteFinder discovered, they have almost identical deflated layout:


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Re: Kite Designer Pat Goodman leaves North

Postby Blackened » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:40 pm

Tony in FL wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:55 pm
With Pat leaving North and the popularity of the Orbit it will be interesting to see what he does next. Cabrinha already has two "do it all" kites - the Moto and Switchblade. The Moto is a freeride kite with emphasis on foiling and surf while the Switchblade is a freeride kite with emphasis on big air. The Switchblade has such a big following that Cabrinha may be hesitant to make big changes to it (which may even have been part of the reason that they came up with the Moto as a different model kite).

It seems like Pat would want to bring over some of his Orbit magic to Cabrinha. But how to do so is an interesting question. Does he start messing with the flight characteristics of the Switchblade, and risk upsetting the masses of Switchblade riders? Or does he start reworking the Moto (seems unlikely since its strengths have been more about foiling and surf)? Or does he come up with yet another kite model (this seems unlikely as the Switchblade is already marketed as a big air kite)?

Perhaps he will go the route of subtle changes to the Switchblade for improvement and bigger air. I think the Orbit already has plenty of Switchblade DNA in it as when I demoed one I felt it had a Swtichblade feel to it.
I agree with the DNA comment. It's almost like he redesigned the Switchblade for Nick to win KOTA again. If I was a betting human, I would say he's going to change the Switchblade into a redesigned Orbit from his learnings developing it. I don't think the Orbit shape/canopy design has changed hardly at all since its debut at KOTA 2019. The major thing they've done is revamped the bridle quite a lot. There was a video of Pat talking about bridle design somewhere and it being a dark art - he basically said the original Orbit had (I think) four pulleys, then he spent a year modifying the bridle to make it pulleyless for the official release.


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