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What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

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NotsoShort
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What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby NotsoShort » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:39 pm

Some videos are a bit confusing and some say they are doing heli loops but looks more like a kite loop when pulling their back hand.

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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby nothing2seehere » Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:49 pm

These terms describe the type of loop
Kite loop = pull loop with back hand
Down loop / contra loop = pull loop with front hand

These terms describe the timing that you initiate the loop
Heli-loop = high in the window after the apex with the loop staying high
powered kite loop = before the apex of the jump
low power loop / landing loop = after the apex on the way down
Mega loop = Powered kite loop where the height is at least 15m and the kite passes level to the rider or below the rider in the loop. If you don't think you might die during a loop then you haven't done a mega loop.

The confusion is that kite loop as a term is used to describe both looping the kite as an action and a specific type of loop. Go figure?
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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby NotsoShort » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:03 pm

Thanks for clarifying. I agree the term kite loop is being used to much

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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby Blackened » Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:55 am

nothing2seehere wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:49 pm
Mega loop = Powered kite loop where the height is at least 15m and the kite passes level to the rider or below the rider in the loop. If you don't think you might die during a loop then you haven't done a mega loop.
Agree with everything else but this. If you use this definition of a megaloop, I can't remember one completed in a comp (or even seen any video) in at least the last few years. Even Liam's monster 20m+ loop at Cold Hawaii wouldn't count because his kite wasn't low enough. Plenty go 15m, but none drop it to horizontal, and certainly none below. I can't remember what Josh calls his negative loops, but "megaloop" was around long before Josh started doing that, and I consider those different/more extreme.

...Also, I thought I was going to die multiple times during loops when I was learning them. 45 degree kite angle and 5m certainly doesn't count :P.

I've always gone with 10m and 15 degrees, but if Kiteforum wants to define it higher, willing to move it to 15m.

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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby zloilyoha » Sat Oct 23, 2021 7:05 am

nothing2seehere wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:49 pm
These terms describe the type of loop
Kite loop = pull loop with back hand
Down loop / contra loop = pull loop with front hand

These terms describe the timing that you initiate the loop
Heli-loop = high in the window after the apex with the loop staying high
powered kite loop = before the apex of the jump
low power loop / landing loop = after the apex on the way down
Mega loop = Powered kite loop where the height is at least 15m and the kite passes level to the rider or below the rider in the loop. If you don't think you might die during a loop then you haven't done a mega loop.

The confusion is that kite loop as a term is used to describe both looping the kite as an action and a specific type of loop. Go figure?
I would say - a proper heli is when the kite loops behind your back

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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:57 am

Blackened wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:55 am
nothing2seehere wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 1:49 pm
Mega loop = Powered kite loop where the height is at least 15m and the kite passes level to the rider or below the rider in the loop. If you don't think you might die during a loop then you haven't done a mega loop.
Agree with everything else but this. If you use this definition of a megaloop, I can't remember one completed in a comp (or even seen any video) in at least the last few years. Even Liam's monster 20m+ loop at Cold Hawaii wouldn't count because his kite wasn't low enough. Plenty go 15m, but none drop it to horizontal, and certainly none below. I can't remember what Josh calls his negative loops, but "megaloop" was around long before Josh started doing that, and I consider those different/more extreme.

...Also, I thought I was going to die multiple times during loops when I was learning them. 45 degree kite angle and 5m certainly doesn't count :P.

I've always gone with 10m and 15 degrees, but if Kiteforum wants to define it higher, willing to move it to 15m.
I'm trying to remember the exact phrasing that Mr Hadlow used when he defined it - could have changed it due to poor memory(?) - but I do remember that height and how low the kite gets being a factor.
zloilyoha wrote: I would say - a proper heli is when the kite loops behind your back
Its an interesting point. I would previously have agreed with you but videos from Alex Buss (kitesurf-college) have made me reassess somewhat. In order to get the kite to loop behind you, you need to either be kitelooping or sending the kite as you need the forwards momentum to get the swing to allow the kite to rotate behind you. I would argue that the purpose of a heli loop is to slow the rate of descent and that whilst at first glance, Mike Macdonald's videos look like he is steering the kite behind him for a heli loop all the time, he is actually often waiting for the kite to pass behind and then flying it round in front of him in many cases (I think this is a front hand heli loop vs back hand).

The ultimate purpose of the loop is to get the kite to spend as much time in the high lift zone and this may be slightly in front or behind you - hence why I choose to characterise the heli loop as a loop high in the window as it may not be necessary to loop the kite behind your head.

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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby knotwindy » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:09 pm

I always thought the heli loop was done on the way down and had to pass through 12 to spend as much time as possible overhead (in the high lift zone) to slow the decent?

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Re: What is the significant difference between heli loop, kite loop, down loop?

Postby Blackened » Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:25 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 9:57 am
I'm trying to remember the exact phrasing that Mr Hadlow used when he defined it - could have changed it due to poor memory(?) - but I do remember that height and how low the kite gets being a factor.
Took a while and a lot of reading:


Mega-loop = 10m + kite low enough to generate a significant horizontal pull.
Psycho-loop = Kite below horizontal. I always thought Josh coined it, but I saw it defined on a forum from 2012.


The megaloop definition is from 2010. Wonder what the pros would say now? Probably could do with an update for the '20s.
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