Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Wing type for very bad sea conditions

A forum dedicated to Hydrofoil riders
azoele
Medium Poster
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:00 am
Gear: Airush DNA 14
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby azoele » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:13 pm

Dear gang,

I hope someone with more experience can enlighten.

What would be the preferred wing type/size for bad sea conditions, especially when water is very foamy?
I mean by that: big (certainly not glassy) waves, big patches of foam everywhere, and waves leaving in their trails extremely turbulent water that is almost as difficult to foil as foam.

I ask because my last two sessions were tough: one very bad, the other plain horrible.
Foamy landscape from waves breaking from the beach to at least 50 meters, and was forced to waterstart from there (with the foil shaking and stalling) as it was impossible to overcome the waves. Before the end of this patch, big (for me...) waves coming right at me, well over 2 meters. After those... conditions worsened. Yikes. :nono:

I foil with a medium aspect wing (1200cmq, 81cm wide, 1.8cm thick, Gong's Fluid L), and riding – at least the second session – was impossible to me, had to head back to the beach. A couple of times the foam made the foil abruptly lose all its lift and drop me like a rock, and in general, turbulence was significant, as I needed lots of power (8m kite, with 14-20 knots; same wind I would feel overpowered with a 5m in nicer sea, despite being over 100Kg).

So: should I look towards thin high aspect thin wings? or would chubby, narrow low A-R wings navigate better the waters filled with air? and would a bigger size wing help (i.e. 1500, 1800 sq cm?)

I only foil, so learning to use a surfboard or a twin tip... not an option.
And I'd rather not purchase the wrong wings: even with Gong's prices, they're still 300€ a pop, expensive as doorstops!
:D

If anyone has direct experiences and suggestions, I'm all ears. :thumb:

ieism
Medium Poster
Posts: 197
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:56 pm
Kiting since: 2019
Local Beach: Ijmuiden
Favorite Beaches: Beauduc, Rockanje
Style: Foil.
Gear: Flysurfer Peak 4: 4/5/8/11m
Dwarfcraft 4'6 Gong X-over foil
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Amsterdam
Has thanked: 54 times
Been thanked: 55 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby ieism » Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:19 pm

How on earth does one learn to foil without experience on a TT or surfboard?
These users thanked the author ieism for the post:
1234567Simon (Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:17 am)
Rating: 6.67%

User avatar
jakemoore
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:59 am
Gear: Foil and 1strut kites.
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Oleander
Has thanked: 97 times
Been thanked: 194 times
Contact:

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby jakemoore » Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:25 am

ieism wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:19 pm
How on earth does one learn to foil without experience on a TT or surfboard?
Foiling in overhead surf no less!!!!


1) you have to build your skill into these conditions. Pay dues in flat water and smaller waves. You have to be able to make transitions with enough fluidity to go around anything you can’t cross. At minimum touchdown jibes should be near 100%

2) I find that I need to get out past the mess to get started. There is no use if a wave is going to break over your head before the board is in position. If it’s onshore winds it might take 20 minutes of body dragging. There is a Horue video showing the best technique to body drag through whitewater. It’s less efficient but you don’t get thrashed. Once riding I can ride back into the mess.

3) the board is as important as the wing if not more so. It’s fine if the board touches if you have the right shape. I like to imagine the waves licking the board on the way out.

4). I like a low aspect shovel shape wing 800-1200 cm2, a relatively short mast and nothing sharp. I’m playing around with a Moses 1000 wing which is pretty much the opposite in every way. Even in small chop there is unpredictable lift different across the span of the wing that causes surprise pitch and rolls. I have had one amazing light wind wave session with it in knee high swells and 10-11 knots. It’s the very last wing I would chose for the conditions you describe. The Ketos Kool 1200 is just about ideal and I think a little thinner than most other shovels I have seen. A thicker wing may be more likely to develop front foot pressure on the wave.

5). The heavier your gear the more it will hurt when it hits you. The gong stuff I have held is nice but not light. Wear a helmet and eye protection.

azoele
Medium Poster
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:00 am
Gear: Airush DNA 14
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby azoele » Tue Dec 07, 2021 6:20 am

ieism wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:19 pm
How on earth does one learn to foil without experience on a TT or surfboard?
You are are, that was not 100% true, apologies.

I can waterstart with a surfboard, and more or less hold a straightish line in very flat water (still will lose water though).
I tried it few months ago on a friend's board. Not much more than that.
No experience on twin tips, which irrationally I find very scary.
I just foil, that's it :roll:

User avatar
Peter_Frank
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 11039
Joined: Wed Oct 16, 2002 1:00 am
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Denmark
Has thanked: 461 times
Been thanked: 583 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby Peter_Frank » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:00 am

Agree with Jake.

Having a board which is not too flat, scoop (heavy nose rocker) is important for the touchdowns and wave crossings.

A big(ger) low AR wing, "shovel type" yes, will be able to ride the best through whitewater, as it can get crazy aoa's without stalling, as opposed to higher aspect wings.

Not too small either, as you will get some extra margin if bigger, so the L is a bit on the small size for you I think.
I have an XL Fluid, for wingfoiling only (too big for me for kitefoil @78 kg), 1480 cm2 and quite straight medium AR, which lifts a lot and glides well - but not as low AR as the classic Moses (Sabfoil now) 633 or Ketos 1200 Kool wings, but they are a tad too small for you in size.

Some might say you should have a small fast wing to get through the whitewater quicker.
I dont buy this one - yes to some extent you can "race" through an area of whitewater, using kitepower and recover after the whitewater - but for continously riding in bigger areas of foamy water, where you need lift from the wing, and control, it is a no go.

A really big low AR wing is the target in my experience.

Maybe the Rise or the X-Over? (if not too draggy, I dont know these for kitefoil, can just see they are low AR and thick)

8) Peter

azoele
Medium Poster
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:00 am
Gear: Airush DNA 14
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby azoele » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:08 am

First! May I ask you: what eye protection you have in mind? I am very, very interested :thumb:

As to the rest, I must apologize if I didn't come across cleanly enough, I should have been a bit more specific.

I am certainly not a "good" rider (and even that... is probably bragging on my side :D ), but I routinely do flying jibes, tacks, and toeside tacks. No foot switches during tacks, no jumps, only ride strapless.
And I could ride those conditions, and succeeded, but found them too harsh as the foil would shake most of the time, stall some time, so very tough, and to a point (imho) even dangerous, as I had no way to "flee" large waves if needed as the foil wouldn't accelerate or would stall.

Hence the question whether a bigger, chubbier kind of foil would fare better in these conditions.
Or if higher aspect ones could be the ticket.
And if significantly larger sizes could help (I usually ride 1200-1300sq cm medium A-R; some foilers here scrape the barrel in ridiculous winds – 5 knots – on SAB 1100...).

I think what I met to be a very specific set of conditions, removed from normal foiling. My experience is that in calm water practically any foil will do, but when the see is frothing to this extent, well, my current setup hit a wall.

So, maybe this is just no-foil territory for normal people like me. It may well be, and that will be ok.
But if different foils are better suited to those conditions, and maintain lift and suffer less the loss of lift due to foam (and I suspect air embedded even under the surface, as surface water was very very light coloured and "bumpy" when riding), then it becomes doable.
Better: it regains safety, because doable it already is (I foiled in that mess...), but not nice, and not safe enough for me.

And if it's safe again, then it's a hoot: it's a challenging environment, but not uncommon here, unfortunately, in winter.
But honestly, having to overcome a coming 2m+ wave with a foil, climbing over it, I admit it has a certain... exhilaration. :D

So, the question lingers: are other kinds/types of foil better suited to this? I wouldn't mind even a larger 1600/1800 foil, probably. Stability is bad in these conditions, the board just shakes under your feet, falls down and recovers, it's a lot of effort (for me) to navigate.

As to your other suggestions, I answer below:

1) answered before!

2) I agree completely. But the last two sessions, this was just impossible. Waves breaking were too large to bodydrag, they would hit me like a ton of bricks and send me and the foil flying backwards (dangerously). Hence, I could only waterstart with instant foiling, and navigate the mess hopoing to gain enough speed to overcome the bigger waves coming. Took sevedral times to time everything and get over the foam and cross the incoming waves. With some "interesting" falls :D

3) it's a Groove Skate Pro. Am no exeprt in boards, but I was explained (or they tricked me! :D ) it is "designed" for waves. Large, 115cm, big scoop, thick, about 3.5Kg. I was even thinking of something much smaller, because facing bigger waves is easier the shorter the board, less risk of hitting the surface when climbing.

4) my foil is not super low aspect (had the Onda, don't like it anymore), but still pretty low A-R, and 1200cm. Won't go lower than that, as with my weight stall speed becomes very abrupt, which is challenging already in good conditions...

5) So very true. The foil can be a harsh mistress.
Let me put up a couple words for Gong though: yes, their Alu setups are heavy, but I'm riding a full carbon setup, and their mast is actually as light or lighter than SABFoil, for example (2.800gr Gong, 2400gr Sab + fuselage, but the Gong is 8cm taller).
And masts+wings are bombproof, in my experience. In any case, a far cry from the ultra-light Moses Onda setup, which I weighted at 3.3Kg mast+wing+stab.

Thanks for your help :thumb:

P.S.
The Horue rider is impressive in the videos...
jakemoore wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:25 am
ieism wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:19 pm
How on earth does one learn to foil without experience on a TT or surfboard?
Foiling in overhead surf no less!!!!


1) you have to build your skill into these conditions. Pay dues in flat water and smaller waves. You have to be able to make transitions with enough fluidity to go around anything you can’t cross. At minimum touchdown jibes should be near 100%

2) I find that I need to get out past the mess to get started. There is no use if a wave is going to break over your head before the board is in position. If it’s onshore winds it might take 20 minutes of body dragging. There is a Horue video showing the best technique to body drag through whitewater. It’s less efficient but you don’t get thrashed. Once riding I can ride back into the mess.

3) the board is as important as the wing if not more so. It’s fine if the board touches if you have the right shape. I like to imagine the waves licking the board on the way out.

4). I like a low aspect shovel shape wing 800-1200 cm2, a relatively short mast and nothing sharp. I’m playing around with a Moses 1000 wing which is pretty much the opposite in every way. Even in small chop there is unpredictable lift different across the span of the wing that causes surprise pitch and rolls. I have had one amazing light wind wave session with it in knee high swells and 10-11 knots. It’s the very last wing I would chose for the conditions you describe. The Ketos Kool 1200 is just about ideal and I think a little thinner than most other shovels I have seen. A thicker wing may be more likely to develop front foot pressure on the wave.

5). The heavier your gear the more it will hurt when it hits you. The gong stuff I have held is nice but not light. Wear a helmet and eye protection.

azoele
Medium Poster
Posts: 103
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:00 am
Gear: Airush DNA 14
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby azoele » Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:19 am

Hello Peter,

I was answering Jake's and missed your comment!

Yes, I agree: it's not just a matter of getting through the whitewater (thanks, the proper word had left my mind!) quicker.
had stalls doing 10+ knots due to water conditions, so a smaller wing would have probably precipitated things much earlier. And waterstarting in the mess would have been impossible with zero lift...

Your recipe may be right: a chubbier wing.
Either one of the new Curves, like the XL-S (GONG has multiplied the lines :o ) or X-Over. Or, cheaply, I may try the Rise L that came with my gentle half's wingfoil setup. The Rise is 1600sq cm, but it is I thing 3cm thick and ultra low A-R.
I wonder about gaining speed though: I had a hard time accelerating, as the foil would wobble, and it was difficult to power up with no stability.

Well, I knew these were not the usual foiling conditions :wink:

But they are the conditions that I can find here, so have to adapt.

Thanks!




Peter_Frank wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:00 am
Agree with Jake.

Having a board which is not too flat, scoop (heavy nose rocker) is important for the touchdowns and wave crossings.

A big(ger) low AR wing, "shovel type" yes, will be able to ride the best through whitewater, as it can get crazy aoa's without stalling, as opposed to higher aspect wings.

Not too small either, as you will get some extra margin if bigger, so the L is a bit on the small size for you I think.
I have an XL Fluid, for wingfoiling only (too big for me for kitefoil @78 kg), 1480 cm2 and quite straight medium AR, which lifts a lot and glides well - but not as low AR as the classic Moses (Sabfoil now) 633 or Ketos 1200 Kool wings, but they are a tad too small for you in size.

Some might say you should have a small fast wing to get through the whitewater quicker.
I dont buy this one - yes to some extent you can "race" through an area of whitewater, using kitepower and recover after the whitewater - but for continously riding in bigger areas of foamy water, where you need lift from the wing, and control, it is a no go.

A really big low AR wing is the target in my experience.

Maybe the Rise or the X-Over? (if not too draggy, I dont know these for kitefoil, can just see they are low AR and thick)

8) Peter

1234567Simon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 241
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2020 6:42 pm
Kiting since: 2019
Local Beach: Netherland‘s beaches
Favorite Beaches: Ijmuiden on NW
Gear: Freeride , and Wave kites
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 258 times
Been thanked: 51 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby 1234567Simon » Tue Dec 07, 2021 8:57 am

??
??
- 100kg
- Fluid Foil, this is a foil for experienced riders.
- No big kiting experience with surfboard or TT
- From your wording, no other water sport experience.

- On the Foil
Flying jibe,
Tacking,
tacking toe to heel….

If that is all true:
Wow: you are my hero!
You are much more talented than I am.

How many foiling days did you have until now?
20? 30?


This is only my oppinion:
With all that talent, and beeing a pretty good Foiler, no other foil will help you in these conditions (with 2 meter wave faces, I would not even think about taking the foil).

Sometimes the conditions just do not fit.
Karma!
Bad luck!
It‘s nature.

I understand you do not want a surfboard.

My strong advice:
Go buy a surfboard! It will take you 1/2 session until you charge full down the line with smacking cut backs, and stylish floaters over the foam- sections.

Second advice: straps could help in those conditions. (But that is my „problem“ that I think, in Waves higher than my head, straps are useful)

Nelis
Rare Poster
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:44 am
Weight: 79kg
Local Beach: de Zuid, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Texas City, TX
Hoek van Holland, NL
Denia, ES
Style: Hydrofoil & TT
Gear: FS Soul 10m
FS Peak4 4m
F-one Furtive 10&8m
Dwarfcraft/Levitaz Cruizer
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby Nelis » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:42 am

In this video Matt talks specifically about the 800 wing being developed with more stability in white water:

https://youtu.be/AINmSsnrAUo?t=121

Nelis
Rare Poster
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:44 am
Weight: 79kg
Local Beach: de Zuid, Scheveningen
Favorite Beaches: Texas City, TX
Hoek van Holland, NL
Denia, ES
Style: Hydrofoil & TT
Gear: FS Soul 10m
FS Peak4 4m
F-one Furtive 10&8m
Dwarfcraft/Levitaz Cruizer
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Wing type for very bad sea conditions

Postby Nelis » Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:46 am

Also, I was wondering if 'tuning' of the mast and wings would improve behaviour in white water and chop positively, like race foils are sanded?

Like this:
https://www.riftboards.com/sanding-your-hydrofoil/


Return to “Hydrofoil”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests