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optimize waterstart for marginal winds

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Herman
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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Herman » Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:23 am

Good stuff from Regis, I am not a light wind rider (96kg) and am just joining the discussion to pass the time. My trying to push the limits on water starting stems from windsurf wave riding with undersized sails. The, perhaps comparable criteria, was the ability to ball up to lower the level of angular inertia to make the roll up easier and sinking the board to sort off pull it underneath you. The two factors did not go completely hand in hand and so you had to sort of pump your body up over the board.

Questions to Regis:

Do you have a similar feeling and, if so, are you aware of being able to time the body pump with the kite movement?

Do you feel that a low volume board is an advantage for the ultimate waterstart, even if it may have disadvantages elsewhere.

PS I think I see from the video that in addition you are pumping the foil whilst it is still on its side and you are just beginning to move and before you are up, does that over ride the above in your thinking regarding balling up etc.
Last edited by Herman on Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Regis-de-giens
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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jan 03, 2022 5:53 pm

I am not sure my english levels allows me to catch well your idea ; if it is to lower le board 'under my body' by sinking it underwater in order to reduce the travel of the CoG of the rider to above the board, yes , I agree, it is what I am trying to achieve ;
I understood quite recently that focussing the sinking on the rear of the board only, allows to sink it more easily and deeper ( probable reason is less drawn surface and better angle to sink it).

For my light weight, yes I think a no volume (actually it has a bit of volume, 20 liters 2cm thickness), is more efficient because those winds does not provide enough traction to be lifted on the board. less volune = easier to sink but also more efficient anti-drag plane at the very start of the kite movement). Then once on the board I can compensate the poor glide (of the low volume board) by pumping (or at least it is not the limiting factor= going on the board and gliding enough to foil-up is approx the same limit in my case).

I pump as soon as I can, this is how I feel I can hope make the board float again; it is more a feeling than a logical physical deduction.
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Herman
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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Herman » Mon Jan 03, 2022 6:21 pm

Thanks Regis for the reply and the video. I am not the best at expressing my thoughts simply, but judging by your answer I think you understood what I was trying to say. I fully get that it has to be a feeling, presumably the better you get at it the earlier you can pump. Again much appreciated. Merci beaucoup,


PS Apologies, there were some editing f#*k ups on my part which didn’t help convey my meaning!

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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Regis-de-giens » Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:56 pm

Herman wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:23 am
are you aware of being able to time the body pump with the kite movement?
I could precise a point that we do not see on this video in particular : on top of pumping the foil when possible, I sometime play with my own body "suspension" and position on the board (not always , depending on "feeling"): Indeed , once the first part of the waterstart achieves (body on the board) , when I need to work the kite again upward as it hardly flies (for example when initiating a new loop upward), I let my upper body "fall" backward (rather than stand up completely above the board). This (temporary) fall of my body allows to :
- tension the line because my harness will pull the chicken loop upwind and downward ),
- and in addition it also free the board of most of my weight during the fall , to avoid the board sinking deeper (and keep or improve the small amount of glide I have at that moment) ;

It has to be very short to avoid touching the water with your back (otherwise you have to redo the complete waterstart process :cry: ) , so it is a kind of "anticipation" that the kite will very soon (1 or 2 seconds after) , regain speed and pull. Hard to explain with words, but the idea is to "smoother" the variability of the kite by using your body as an accumulator : you punctually transfer some of your potential energy (weight altitude) to compensate for the kite loss of pull when going upward, then you exchange the energies again: when kite flies again side or downward having now more pull , you can let you go above the board again and give your body back its initial energy / altitude , ready for the next loop ... :jump:

I adjust the amount of "accumulator" I need or "feel" by bending my knees more or less: legs fully extended = more effet but harder to come back above the board.

Hard to illustrate it with my go pro on the helmet ; which hides this movement.
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Herman
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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Herman » Mon Jan 03, 2022 11:22 pm

Dropping your weight as you fly up makes sense to me. Not only does it pull the centre lies via the chicken loop and deweight the board as you drop but also as the c of g is lower you can lean on the kite a little harder than if you were standing tall. I might give that a practice on my surfskate to feel the effect; should be easy to repeat compared to water starting.

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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby jakemoore » Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:48 am



Regis, I love your light wind vids. Keep them coming!

For minimal winds I find long and thin lines a big help. This is 35m and thicker lines would have too much drag to make the kite unresponsive. For the board I am also using a very low volume board and no straps. I've tried boards from 30-125 liters and I think the sinking board is best to get tension on the lines.

I find putting my front foot in the normal place but my rear foot forward helps me water start in minimal winds. With the rear foot forward, say on the balance point of the board and the weight low it is easier to get to a standing position on the board with the board a few feet under water. Then with a kite loop the board comes to the surface. I fly big wide loops with the bar sheeted out and try to get the kite to return as high in the window as possible. At the apex, I pull in the bar to try to get height and initiate a second strong turn on the kite.

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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:17 am

Thanks ! always wonder if videos keeps interest for you all ; indeed thin lines allows to win kite pull and stability in lowest winds. 29m lines in my case.
I feel a lot similar to your feelings and method of waterstart ; with straps I do not change my foot position, but in the lowest end I need to sink the board by its rear so use a lot my rear foot at the most rear position ; until the board floats again, I keep my weight on the rear to have the noze of the board pointing upward, so that when I get a bit of speed, the board wants to goes on the water and do not sink deeper (if the noze was pointing downward); I try to escape as soon as possible the situation when the board is underwater, for balance reason and because it has such a bad glide underwater ... so I could stick in this situation for too long if the board remains underwater .
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby papasmerf » Fri Jan 14, 2022 5:54 pm

jakemoore wrote:
Fri Jan 07, 2022 5:48 am


Regis, I love your light wind vids. Keep them coming!

For minimal winds I find long and thin lines a big help. This is 35m and thicker lines would have too much drag to make the kite unresponsive. For the board I am also using a very low volume board and no straps. I've tried boards from 30-125 liters and I think the sinking board is best to get tension on the lines.

I find putting my front foot in the normal place but my rear foot forward helps me water start in minimal winds. With the rear foot forward, say on the balance point of the board and the weight low it is easier to get to a standing position on the board with the board a few feet under water. Then with a kite loop the board comes to the surface. I fly big wide loops with the bar sheeted out and try to get the kite to return as high in the window as possible. At the apex, I pull in the bar to try to get height and initiate a second strong turn on the kite.
is that a 15m chrono v4?

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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby jakemoore » Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:57 pm

Yes the 15. V4 is reasonably light to fly in very low wind, has good durability and availability. And it makes a strong power spike with kite speed to get out and moving.

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Re: optimize waterstart for marginal winds

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Jan 14, 2022 8:35 pm

I was also wondering if it was a Ozone ; great video, glassy water, definitely very low wind !
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