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Small boards are often tricky

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Cefirmeza
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Re: Small boards are often crap....

Postby Cefirmeza » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:26 am

happywizz wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:39 pm
Interesting topic!
Im 75 kg. Foils: SAB W800, SAB BM799

Below my board volume history and impressions.
1. In June 2021 I started with a 140 l board I could borrow.
2. After 3 times I bought a SAB95 liter. Found it much easier to gibe and overall handling than the 140 l board
3. Sold it after using it 10 times because I was thinking a 75 l board would be ok and smaller easier for transport. Bought a Naish 75 l Found again an improvement of the handling on the water compared to bigger 95 l board. So a further upgrade.
4. After 15 times using the Naish 75 I got an extra Groove Wave 65 l board, again i found doing gibes/wave riding easier. Sold the Naish 75. But with tougher conditions it is more difficult to start (b4 I used the stinkbug method) - board flipping over and slipping away - compared to the 75 l board. So I had to adjust but it was doable. A little bit less low end compared to the 75 l but more fun.
5. To challenge the limits and because I thought a smaller board will have some advantages in particulier conditions I bought in december 2021 an Appletree 35 l wing board. With the stinkbug method as easy to waterstart as the bigger boards, in choppy/high wave conditions easier as the board is below the waterline, also to get through the shorebreak is far less difficult. BUT you need CONSTANT strong wind, otherwise you are fucked. So with the 35 l board I tend to use a bigger wing than I would use otherwise, just as a safety measure. Which is a negative because I prefer the smallest wing possible. On the other hand, the smallest board is much easier to tack, to pump and is more agile in the waves. All in all if my life is not in danger I will use the 35 liter.

For who doesnt know what the stinkbug waterstart is:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0GWY5qZ9EU&lis ... arding.com
Works perfect, its also the method I prefer now for my 65 l board. Only downside is that you dont see the waves or wind gust coming.

My usage:
Between 13- 18 knots I use the Groove 65 with SAB BM799 (Wing 5.5/4.5)
Between constant 18- 25 knots I use the AppleTree 35 with SAB BM799 (Wing 4.5-4.0)
Above constant 25+ knots I use the AppleTree 35 with SAB W800 (high waves) (Wing 4.0-3.5)
Above 18+ knots If it the wind is really gusty/unpredictable or now in wintertime I use mostly the Groove 65 with the W800. (Wing 3.5 - 2.8 )
For a holiday by plane I would only bring the 35l board.

Negatives of a smaller volume board:
- meed constant strong wind.
- to get up the foil needs twice the pumping
- no safety fallback
- mostly will use a bigger wing compared to a high volume board

Positive
- handling on the water (it just fits like a glove)
- getting through the shorebreak
- waterstart in choppy/high wave conditions
- transport
- (much) cheaper, the higher the volume the higher the price for wing boards.
- dual purpose with foilsurfing
65L Started winging july 2021 with kitefoiling background

After learning on 75L used a 55L a few weeks.
Today I use a 34L kitefoil board from 14 knots - 18 knots on 4.5 slick and a 25L armstrong 3’11 SKT board above 18 knots on q 3.5 slick. Sabfoil w1000 or w800 when breaking waves.

I think a sinker not so small is much worth it after you develop the stinkbug start.

One more positive thing about small board is getting out of water with totally dry wing just tilting the board after riding waist deep water with wing high in one hand and grabbing the rail with other.
Everything becomes so much simple but I don’t go out below 13 knots or until there are small wind bumps.

Cefirmeza
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Posts: 145
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Weight: 65kg
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Style: Kitefoil Wingfoil
Gear: Slingshot sst 4m, Airush Ultra 5m, brm cloud 5.5m, Peak4 4m/6m, Duotone Slick 3.5/4.5m
Sabfoil W1000,W800, Lift classic 150
Armstrong SKT3’11 25L
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Re: Small boards are often crap....

Postby Cefirmeza » Wed Jan 19, 2022 2:28 am

happywizz wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:39 pm
Interesting topic!
Im 75 kg. Foils: SAB W800, SAB BM799

Below my board volume history and impressions.
1. In June 2021 I started with a 140 l board I could borrow.
2. After 3 times I bought a SAB95 liter. Found it much easier to gibe and overall handling than the 140 l board
3. Sold it after using it 10 times because I was thinking a 75 l board would be ok and smaller easier for transport. Bought a Naish 75 l Found again an improvement of the handling on the water compared to bigger 95 l board. So a further upgrade.
4. After 15 times using the Naish 75 I got an extra Groove Wave 65 l board, again i found doing gibes/wave riding easier. Sold the Naish 75. But with tougher conditions it is more difficult to start (b4 I used the stinkbug method) - board flipping over and slipping away - compared to the 75 l board. So I had to adjust but it was doable. A little bit less low end compared to the 75 l but more fun.
5. To challenge the limits and because I thought a smaller board will have some advantages in particulier conditions I bought in december 2021 an Appletree 35 l wing board. With the stinkbug method as easy to waterstart as the bigger boards, in choppy/high wave conditions easier as the board is below the waterline, also to get through the shorebreak is far less difficult. BUT you need CONSTANT strong wind, otherwise you are fucked. So with the 35 l board I tend to use a bigger wing than I would use otherwise, just as a safety measure. Which is a negative because I prefer the smallest wing possible. On the other hand, the smallest board is much easier to tack, to pump and is more agile in the waves. All in all if my life is not in danger I will use the 35 liter.

For who doesnt know what the stinkbug waterstart is:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0GWY5qZ9EU&lis ... arding.com
Works perfect, its also the method I prefer now for my 65 l board. Only downside is that you dont see the waves or wind gust coming.

My usage:
Between 13- 18 knots I use the Groove 65 with SAB BM799 (Wing 5.5/4.5)
Between constant 18- 25 knots I use the AppleTree 35 with SAB BM799 (Wing 4.5-4.0)
Above constant 25+ knots I use the AppleTree 35 with SAB W800 (high waves) (Wing 4.0-3.5)
Above 18+ knots If it the wind is really gusty/unpredictable or now in wintertime I use mostly the Groove 65 with the W800. (Wing 3.5 - 2.8 )
For a holiday by plane I would only bring the 35l board.

Negatives of a smaller volume board:
- meed constant strong wind.
- to get up the foil needs twice the pumping
- no safety fallback
- mostly will use a bigger wing compared to a high volume board

Positive
- handling on the water (it just fits like a glove)
- getting through the shorebreak
- waterstart in choppy/high wave conditions
- transport
- (much) cheaper, the higher the volume the higher the price for wing boards.
- dual purpose with foilsurfing
65kg I started winging july 2021 with kitefoiling background

After learning on 75L used a 55L a few weeks.
Today I use a 34L kitefoil board from 14 knots - 18 knots on 4.5 slick and a 25L armstrong 3’11 SKT board above 18 knots on q 3.5 slick. Sabfoil w1000 or w800 when breaking waves.

I think a sinker not so small is much worth it after you develop the stinkbug start.

One more positive thing about small board is getting out of water with totally dry wing just tilting the board after riding waist deep water with wing high in one hand and grabbing the rail with other.
Everything becomes so much simple but I don’t go out below 13 knots or until there are small wind bumps.

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mr_daruman
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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby mr_daruman » Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:33 am

My take on this.
I used to advocate bigger boards...same as your weight + 10 kg. Until I got good, tried a 39L..struggled for a few sessions, then I <got it>. One leg on the deck, the other in the water like a fin, stabilize, use wing on the water for balance, wait for gust, forward momentum, legs on deck, stand, pump and fly. Its now easy for me to ride a 39L in 15 knots with a 1500 foil. The board weights around 3.5kg.

The worst boards in my opinions are in that MIDDLE area. Around your own weight, or minus 10kg....Your not really sinking, your not really floating. Balance is hell. The board still feels heavy to fly.
With a 39L your IN THE WATER balanced. Wait for a gust, pump and ride. Thats it. You fall, you wait. Pump and ride.

Now I have a 80L for those light wind days, 8 to 15 knots. Easy cruise. No stress
And that 39L for the rest.
BTW im 65kg.
スクリーンショット 2022-01-19 17.23.16.png

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juandesooka
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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby juandesooka » Wed Jan 19, 2022 10:04 pm

mr_daruman wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:33 am
The worst boards in my opinions are in that MIDDLE area. Around your own weight, or minus 10kg....Your not really sinking, your not really floating. Balance is hell. The board still feels heavy to fly.
With a 39L your IN THE WATER balanced. Wait for a gust, pump and ride. Thats it. You fall, you wait. Pump and ride.
I tried the sinker thing early on, failed, but didn't really give it a proper go. Been meaning to, so this spring when the dependable wind starts again, I think I'll try.

I felt the frustration of the -10 board. Works ok when lit, but short of that, just tippy enough to fall in over and over and over. And then as you say, still not a small enough board that swing weight makes any noticable difference. Worst of both worlds! I made another somewhere around +10, so much easier and all around fun. But maybe a postscript to this is the stinkbug start, which seems to make semi sinkers realistically viable.

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Re: Small boards are often crap....

Postby Slyde » Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:56 am

happywizz wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 4:39 pm
Interesting topic!
Im 75 kg. Foils: SAB W800, SAB BM799

Below my board volume history and impressions.
1. In June 2021 I started with a 140 l board I could borrow.
2. After 3 times I bought a SAB98 liter. Found it much easier to gibe and overall handling than the 140 l board
3. Sold it after using it 10 times because I was thinking a 85 l board would be ok and smaller easier for transport. Bought a Naish 85 l Found again an improvement of the handling on the water compared to bigger 98 l board. So a further upgrade.
4. After 15 times using the Naish 85 I got an extra Groove Wave 65 l board, again i found doing gibes/wave riding easier. Sold the Naish 85. But with tougher conditions it is more difficult to start (b4 I used the stinkbug method) - board flipping over and slipping away - compared to the 85 l board. So I had to adjust but it was doable. A little bit less low end compared to the 85 l but more fun.
5. To challenge the limits and because I thought a smaller board will have some advantages in particulier conditions I bought in december 2021 an Appletree 35 l wing board. With the stinkbug method as easy to waterstart as the bigger boards, in choppy/high wave conditions easier as the board is below the waterline, also to get through the shorebreak is far less difficult. BUT you need CONSTANT strong wind, otherwise you are fucked. So with the 35 l board I tend to use a bigger wing than I would use otherwise, just as a safety measure. Which is a negative because I prefer the smallest wing possible. On the other hand, the smallest board is much easier to tack, to pump and is more agile in the waves. All in all if my life is not in danger I will use the 35 liter.

For who doesnt know what the stinkbug waterstart is:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0GWY5qZ9EU&lis ... arding.com
Works perfect, its also the method I prefer now for my 65 l board. Only downside is that you dont see the waves or wind gust coming.

My usage:
Between 13- 18 knots I use the Groove 65 with SAB BM799 (Wing 5.5/4.5)
Between constant 18- 25 knots I use the AppleTree 35 with SAB BM799 (Wing 4.5-4.0)
Above constant 25+ knots I use the AppleTree 35 with SAB W800 (high waves) (Wing 4.0-3.5)
Above 18+ knots If it the wind is really gusty/unpredictable or now in wintertime I use mostly the Groove 65 with the W800. (Wing 3.5 - 2.8 )
For a holiday by plane I would only bring the 35l board.

Negatives of a smaller volume board:
- need constant strong wind.
- to get up the foil needs twice the pumping
- no safety fallback
- mostly will use a bigger wing compared to a high volume board

Positive
- handling on the water (it just fits like a glove)
- getting through the shorebreak
- waterstart in choppy/high wave conditions
- transport
- (much) cheaper, the higher the volume the higher the price for wing boards.
- dual purpose with foilsurfing
Pretty much my story too. went 115, 100, 85, 65, 60, 38l Once I could do Stinkbug the 38 became more accessible. 38 is alot of fun but has few days where it is useable where I live. The 60 works for all wind conditions down to as light as I want to go, and if the wind dies I can still paddle it and sit on it with wing in spinnaker mode to get home.If I had one board it would be 60l. Im 75kg too, but in my late 50s.

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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Jan 20, 2022 8:12 pm

So you have no problems starting a -15 litre board Slyde?

Others say this size which is not a sinker, nor floating, is the worst to handle?

Interesting to read from several of you, that when you go sufficiently low in volume, so it sinks, it is actually easier to start?
But requires a tad more wind of course :roll:

8) Peter

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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby rose83 » Thu Jan 20, 2022 10:54 pm

I was looking at rider's boards on the GWA freestyle/wave contests (Tarifa, Dahla...)
Most of the riders used 50-60 liters boards : Boyer C, Balz Muller, Boyer J, Capuzzo F, Guénolé M.....
Malo Guénolé main board is a 64 liters board.
Is there really a need for a smaller board than 50-60 liters ?

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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby bragnouff » Fri Jan 21, 2022 12:08 am

When coming up with a rule, you'd probably have to reconsider the + / - volume values as percentage of the rider bodyweight, as I believe a 60L board for a 75kg rider doesn't behave the same as a 100L board for a 115kg rider or a 40L to a 55kg rider. Anyway, no need for a fancy equation, it's probably fine as it is as a very rough guideline, and there are other parameters than just pure volume affecting the stability of a board in/under water.

Important to also keep in mind that on some spots, sinking too much is not an option. One of our city spots is tidal, not that deep, with a layer of mud/seaweed at the bottom, and having the board an extra 40cm under water when starting would be a real nightmare.

I'm happy to ride a compact 105L (+5) board, I know what it feels like to ride a 36L board as that's my kiting setup. All foil things underneath being equal, it is one foot shorter, lighter, more nimble, but actually not by that much. On the other hand, I don't like always needing a bit more wind or the idea of using a wing bigger than necessary just to start, as that becomes a bit more annoying to ride once you're up. Sure, I'll learn to start that 36L once I go to the windy deep mountain lakes, and it'll be fun, but at the moment I'm still very fond of the values of simplicity, ease of use, safety and resilience to shifty conditions of a decently sized board. It's good to be able to grovel up to a wind line 200m away, without stressing too much. And I can't justify having 2 wing boards, as I'm still a kiter at heart!

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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby irwe » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:04 am



Jeff Howard's thoughts on Small Volume Wingboards

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Re: Small boards are often tricky....

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:34 am

That is true, lack of depth can be an issue for many.

But it is somewhat a different thing, as some spots have plenty of depth or side/sideon wind so easy, and board volume can be discussed separately for these spots.

You are right now, not only when you have a "low water all over" spot.
Now and then I have a problem getting out even with an 85 or 95 cm mast and a floatier board, when onshore and waves.

Here a sinker would be of no use.

Paddling out through even small breaking waves with wing in the leash behind you, is not my cup of tea :(

So walking out with board and wing as far as you can, and then starting between waves/chop and "kneeing" or standing up and get free of the break and low water asap is key, sometimes using a short 80 cm mast so I can just jump up, grab the wing before I get washed, and pump to foil immediately so I can ride over the next sandbank and breakers - it usually works.
But as the breakers get bigger and bigger over the "next" sandbank, it will be more and more difficult to get up/out if you need more depth :o

8) Peter
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