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Soul v1 tips folding

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deniska
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby deniska » Wed Nov 23, 2022 4:42 am

edt wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:26 am
The bridle tends to shrink about the same on all the riser abc and z. When you replace the pulley lines this will make both the long and short tests not work quite right as your adding some length to b and c by replacing the lines. You will want to shorten your b's for sure and maybe the c's a little even though this won't match your mixer tests.
this is an interesting thought and I think you are correct.. but my takeaway is to maybe try to fix the pulley lenghts to match the old ones.. then run the long mixer test and match to a dot...
as to porosity.. doubt it's that apparent in the first 50 hours when first set of pulleys fails..I even had a session when I forgot to close the valves and the kite was flying fine.. no wing tip collapses..

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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby downunder » Wed Nov 23, 2022 6:16 am

Exactly.

Happened to me as well.
To me, it is not distributing pressure so tips are loosing pressure hence folding.

If pressure is not enough, then with open valves it would be much worse on tips. But thats not the case.

One test might be to completely close the tips water openings. That might create higher pressure and prevent folding. Will try that.

Mind u, none of my other foils are doing this. And they are much older, Chrono R1 etc..

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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Herman » Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:56 am

Imho there are 2 main factors that keep the tips up. Firstly the lift from the relevant area of the canopy, and secondly the air pressure in the kite. Of course air pressure and shape/lift also work in combination. Also the shape is influenced by flying line tension and you may find the tip is folding when you are slacking the relevant rear flying line. If this is the case the tips are probably luffing as the fly line goes slack, or at least that is a possible theory.

Tweaking bridles is great in theory if a mixer check is insufficient but finding suitable conditions and enough flying time to sort this type of thing is not easy in my experience. Wish I could be more helpful.
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Janus » Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:41 pm

I have lengthened my tip bridle attachment points, ABC, with 3cm on my 10 & 12m. It’s somewhere mentioned as a tweak by AH.
Don’t know if it was for tip folding.. getting older and forgetting things..
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby downunder » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:29 am

So,

got a vacuum cleaner, and did 2 tests. Filled with the air both and Soul v1 actually keeps a wood frame off the floor for a bit longer than v2.

Of course, this might be due to vents and air escaping elsewhere. Proves nothing, but at least it is not a huge difference, like v2 keeping it forever.

I recon tips tucking might also be due to top canopy a bit bigger than when new.
Because mostly on sewing it expanded a bit and that is affecting the geometry.

The tips tucking is common on paragliders, and caused by pressure.
One side looses pressure and to equalise, the pilot must pull the opposite side breaks. Janus would know :)
But on kite, thats not easy to do.
The search continues.
Soul.png
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby Smeagle » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:53 am

Bridle lines shrink. The lower the load the more the individual lines shrink. There is less load on the tips than in center. More load on the brake lines on tip. Etc. several parts of wing have different loads so they all shrink differently.

First step I would suggest "stretch" the bridle. Fix output of mixer on a strong stake. In a way, mixer does not change when you pull individual lines and left and right is fixed exactly the same. Now stretch every connection point, in pairs left+right, on the canopy hard for a few seconds.

I take the same point from left and right side in pairs. I first compare left/right. Then I pull hard on one side and then compare again. You will see if there now is a difference. In my experience, with one time pulling you will EASY get a difference of 10cm left to right, especially on lines with low load in normal flight. You will get LESS difference on lines with high load. I pull left and right alternating again, until I see no difference any more.


This method is quicker than it sounds, takes ~20 minutes. But it has it's downsides... It is better to fix bridle differences after "setting in" by adding extension, that way it will stay in balance longer... BUT it so too much work for me... I prefer to do a complete bridle stretch as soon, as I notice some problem in flight.


I had some kite with pressure issues, but never had tip folding because of that... I could see pressure drop when depowering quick/hard. Tip folding is mostly bridle related in my experience.

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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby sanderwentink » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:36 am

I still own old FlySurfer Speed 3. Tip folding is not a pressure issue, but a bridle issue.
Had a very old and (ab)used Speed 3 19m, holding no air anymore at all. Tips didn't fold at all.
Low end wasn't really good anymore, but the high end increased much ;)

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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby jbrodin » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:49 am

My Soul V1 10m had folding wing-tips, I spent quite a bit of time to figure it out. Here is a tread I started afterwards, with a solution that worked for me in one of the posts. viewtopic.php?f=197&t=2411970&hilit=tun ... foil+kites
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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby nothing2seehere » Fri Nov 25, 2022 9:25 am

Janus wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:41 pm
I have lengthened my tip bridle attachment points, ABC, with 3cm on my 10 & 12m. It’s somewhere mentioned as a tweak by AH.
Don’t know if it was for tip folding.. getting older and forgetting things..
Is it possible this was a bar pressure change? I remember there was a modification to reduce bar pressure with something similar.

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Re: Soul v1 tips folding

Postby downunder » Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:25 pm

I dont get it guys.

The bridles shrink. Yes. But thats a bridal.

On my v1 almost all B's near canopy is 2-3 cm longer than on v2. And that is only a first set of lines near TE. Hence, longer lines will be even more longer than on v2.

I also wrote on the above link. The kite was flying well after bridle replacement. But it did not last for long.

The pressure in the kite is due to kite geometry, which might or might not be caused by bridles. It is easy to blame bridles but not the internal panels, which also affect pressure air movement.

Again, my Chrono and R1 does not do that. And it is 13 and 17m, so bigger kites - less pressure. Also older kites, so bridles etc all should affect tips tucking.
To me there is no logic in saying bridles are to blame. Nope. All together maybe. Fixing bridles without touching something else is a no go. But what that is, is a question.

Lets not forget, Ozone has velcro on tips, hence closed tips. Now, in my books that is a huge difference. Im quite surprised how no one mentioned that.

No wind so cant try to close the vent.


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