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Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

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Indulang
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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby Indulang » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:45 am

Thanks for raising some great points.

Knots Slipping..
Unlike my Duotone trust bar, the sentry bar doesn't seem to have any knot adjustments hidden near the bar floats. The slingshot bar has multiple knot options (separated by about an inch each) at the end of the lines. For the 3rd and 4th launches, we connected the very last knot both for center and steering lines so it's very unlikely that knots slipped. If a knot had slipped one of the lines would be disconnected altogether.

Bridles..
We did make sure visually there were no bridle tangles prior to launches 3 & 4. In fact, there was a small tangle on launch 2 which we cleared before launching and it went smoothly. Later on, while cleaning up, I visually confirmed that the bridles on both sides of the kite are symmetrical and all the connection points to the LE are intact. Now I didn't measure the bridles so I can't say for sure if they're of equal length. Also, I didn't notice any visible signs of stretching on the longer left steering line.

While it's possible the line actually stretched a lot during the violent crash after launch 3, it's still a mystery why launch 3 went so badly. Clearly, from launch 2 to 3 the line must have stretched already even though the launch 2 crash was quite mild.

Some Lessons..
The traditional recommendation of steering the kite with the upper hand and keeping the lower hand on QR during launch may not have worked here, especially in 25-30kts. The kite rocketed into the power zone with ridiculous speed and before I knew what was going on I got lifted and crashed. If you were anticipating such a problem, having the lower hand on the bar might have helped. Even with either of these solutions, you would need a ridiculously fast reaction time to prevent the problem

My self launch to assisted launch ratio is about 1:10. While I deal with any self launch very gingerly and slowly, when it comes to assisted launch, I do a quick visual check for tangles and line tension in all the lines. My old approach worked 100s of times but clearly doesn't seem to be foolproof. This experience tells me to take it slow and try to visual for any uneven line lengths and strange line tensions.

Having said that I don't even know if it's possible to eyeball a 7-8inch difference in steering line lengths while the helper is still holding the kite during launch.

My main takeaways are to stop the session if the kite is flying funny and also do better visual inspection before giving the launch signal
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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby Herman » Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:02 pm

My wife suggested that it might be better to feel for the 7-8inches rather than look for it!

PS kite is probably just flying normally just seems fast because you were surprised. I can still remember years ago launching a 6m in 30+ knots, seemed to shoot up at amazing speed but managed to yank it down before it got to 45°. That was just the stbd front and rear lines hooking each other at the extension hand shake knot. They came apart with a simple shake, left an indelible impression which has served me well.

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby edt » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:02 pm

"it's still a mystery why launch 3 went so badly. Clearly, from launch 2 to 3 the line must have stretched"

It's not a mystery. You launched 1 and 2 and were aware of the problem and fought against the loop. Your friend launched on launch 3 and looped it hard because he didn't believe you. If you had launched the 3rd time instead of your friend I'm sure it would have been the same as launch 1 and launch 2.

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby sarc » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 am

Deathloops on launch are a thing. I've been launching like this for years without any issues. Jus' sayin'....

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Indulang
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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby Indulang » Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:52 pm

sarc wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 am
Deathloops on launch are a thing. I've been launching like this for years without any issues. Jus' sayin'....
This definitely looks interesting. I'll try it next time. Do you also use this method for self-launching?

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby Baptiste_FR » Fri Nov 25, 2022 5:30 pm

Indulang wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:52 pm
sarc wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 am
Deathloops on launch are a thing. I've been launching like this for years without any issues. Jus' sayin'....
This definitely looks interesting. I'll try it next time. Do you also use this method for self-launching?
I self launch 90% of the time and I do exactly what is shown in that video. I've also posted it a few times in the past on kiteforum. The fact that you only hook to the harness when you have tension in the lines and being sure everything is OK. In my opinion, it is the best method and the safest.

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby Herman » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:00 pm

The vid makes a good point but skips over one of the important issues regarding the self launch, which is how to roll the kite up and do your checks. It says something like don’t hook in until you have even tension on both lines but does not show how to do it and unless you know how to go about it you will still get peeps hooking in with uneven lines. Imho the simplest way to demonstrate what you are looking for is to set up a tether launch where the kite is balanced on a tip and free to fly rather than canted over and pinned. With the bar off the deck everything should look even and the merest tug on the top leader should get the kite airborne.

However, with many kites you have to walk a significant amount upwind to get them to roll up onto a tip. They then lean into wind which pins them to the beach. Many peeps then make the mistake of hooking in ( if they have not already done so ) and getting the kite airborne by pulling hard on the top leader. This makes the kite shoot up…… Instead of doing this once the kite has rolled up walk back downwind until you just start to see the kite wanting to stand up in the previously mentioned tether position. You can then eyeball the bar for even tension and hook in. Just a gentle tug on the top leader gets the kite off the ground. Easy in steady wind but you have to be a bit proactive in shifty conditions.

Even with this method you could miss a small asymmetry and so always be ready to react etc………..

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby Toby » Fri Nov 25, 2022 7:05 pm

that video method works in lighter winds. For more powered people, I wouldn't recommend it...

And pls, if one makes a safety video, make sure to be safe yourself...at 2:45 it's pretty close to the dude on the ground...

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby edt » Fri Nov 25, 2022 8:57 pm

I know that kiters who launch without being hooked into the chicken loop did this back in 2000. 20 years ago you didn't have a quick release so this unhooked launch system was the most common. Today we have the quick release, so for modern kiters it makes more sense to rely on the quick release instead of never hooking in while launching. Kiters who learned launching unhooked never really changed from what they did in 2000 even though the quick release is now very safe. If you are in a death loop and are about to be rag dolled, the best thing to do is use the QR. If you see your kite acting funny use it right away. That's the best way to avoid getting dragged down the beach. The problem is that most people haven't used their QR in years. They forget it's an option, and hold on to the control bar in a death grip until the kite slams into the ground or hits a tree. Go watch a video of someone superman-ing down the beach eating sand and you'll notice their hands don't even come close to the QR.

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Re: Strange situation with lines - Any explanations?

Postby sarc » Sat Nov 26, 2022 3:50 am

Indulang wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:52 pm
sarc wrote:
Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:58 am
Deathloops on launch are a thing. I've been launching like this for years without any issues. Jus' sayin'....
This definitely looks interesting. I'll try it next time. Do you also use this method for self-launching?
I always launch like this since I broke my ribs on launch several years ago (tip wrap). Self launch most of the time. Regardless if assisted or self launch, I use it with 6m kite on 30-35 kn down to 12m kite on 15kn. Always works.


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