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Bar for foiling

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Sceotend
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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby Sceotend » Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:22 am

alekbelia wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:47 am
I've been using singleskins since Peak3. I started with the original FS bar. Since I also competed a lot with a hydrofoil, I gradually switched to carbon bars, which I first bought, then started to make myself. In the hydrofoil the safety line was used extremely rarely.
I gradually threw the trimmer out of use as well. I also started experimenting with landing singleskins in all winds on a snow kite.
I've tested practically every situation from the start, through riding in big waves and snow obstacles.
All this gives me the confidence to recommend this bar for singleskin kites.
Nothing prevents the bar from being used with other types of kites, where I also have a lot of experience, but in recent years I have focused only on singleskins.
In the video you can see the size and look of the quick release and the previous version of the carbon bar.
There have been many more improvements since then, but I haven't made a dedicated video for the quick release and the bar.
Thank you. The technique for landing the kite is fascinating. How frequently does this method lead to a tangled bridle? I've employed a similar approach using the front line. When executed with precision, the kite usually flags out nicely against the ground, making it easy to untangle the bridle.

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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:54 am

edt wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:42 am
Peter_Frank wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:56 am
Why use floaters?
Floaters are very useful. They help prevent death loop chicken line wraps. If you have to use the QR, if the control bar is a sinker, it can go straight to the bottom and get snagged. The kite might then power up and drag you under water. It also makes it easier to lose the control bar since it won't float if you have it wrapped up and somehow it get into the water. About 10 years ago I was using control bars without floaters but I have experienced the problems listed above and since then always build my control bars with floaters.

I think foilers use control bars without floaters purely for aesthetic reasons. Peak kite, a hydrofoil board as big as a potato chip, carbon bar, micro harness with a mini attachment. It's all about having a certain minimalist look. At least to me that's what it seems.

I think it's fine carbon bars that weigh a few grams limited or no depower no floaters, do what you like, but there are functional reasons to use floaters.

For "normal" kiting I would agree with the floaters having a use edt.

For kitefoiling with light kites (and lines maybe) and in particular for single skin kites like this thread partly emerged into (carbon bars for single skin kites), it doesnt make sense IMO:

1. Lofting and deathloops does not happen with these kites.
2. You dont release a single skin kite on the water.

So the floaters is a nuisance and have no use as I see it.

In fact a line snag can happen just as easy or easier if having floaters instead of a clean bar rearline/leaderline as shown in above post, or similar.

8) Peter

PS: What is a "chicken line"?

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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby alekbelia » Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:54 am

rynhardt wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:00 am
I like it. Looks like your Quick Release has a built-in swivel? Could you post a closeup pic of it?
Yes. There is a swivel and it's very handy. This is not the final version yet, but I don't have a photo of the latest one (these days I have made significant changes, but they must also be tested).
Sceotend wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:22 am
How frequently does this method lead to a tangled bridle? I've employed a similar approach using the front line. When executed with precision, the kite usually flags out nicely against the ground, making it easy to untangle the bridle.
This method is slightly better than pulling a front line because the front lines on singleskin kites are attached at 2 points and the kite holds more air.
Also the entanglement of the kite is not great, rather the whole kite is rotated around the four lines.
Very often in light to moderate winds only one or two rolls of the kite around the back end of the kite in the opposite direction to the roll of the kite are required.
It is also better to pull the lower control line, because even the smallest grass or pieces of snow will catch the bridle and the kite will park extremely stable.
I use the same method in very strong winds, but then the entanglement is unavoidable as it takes time to reach the kite while holding one control line.
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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby edt » Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:33 pm

Peter_Frank wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:54 am

In fact a line snag can happen just as easy or easier if having floaters instead of a clean bar rearline/leaderline as shown in above post, or similar.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Floaters definitely help prevent that death loop bar wrap especially if you are trying tricks that make you crash a lot. The "chicken line" is also the depower line. Tho I'm not sure it's the depower line if you don't have a trim and can't depower it. The thick center lines whatever you call it. Keep your minimal bar, I'm not taking it away from you, just saying if someone wants floaters on their otherwise minimal bar there are good reasons for it, so don't hate me for it.

I believe there are some style decisions going into hydrofoil minimalism which are then called functional because style is somehow a dirty word for minimalist hydrofoilers. There's nothing wrong with being stylish.

If you only ride a peak you can also eliminate the quick releases (both leash and chicken loop QR's) entirely since you can rely on the peak collapsing when it crashes. Instead of using a QR to attach yourself to the harness you can use a simple lark's head and eliminate a few more grams of weight.

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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 12, 2024 4:31 pm

In theory and it will work in most cases edt, with a larks head around your hook, yes, so a fixed connection once powered.

But that is (beyond) my limit regarding safety - I want some kind of final release IF something flies into your lines, another kite as an example, or if a car or "anything" drives into your lines on land etc.

It could get horribly wrong if you cant release, say if a big freestyle kite is deathlooping tangled into your lines :o

I still have difficulties seing how the floaters can prevent line wraps at the bar?
If the "sausage" type that is.
Meaning if the floaters are not connected in a relatively "stiff" (but flexible) connection keeping lines away from the bar, like many bars are now, and instead are just sausages on the steering lines - then they wont help prevent bar tangles IMO - can actually make it worse....
BarFloaters.jpg
BarFloaters.jpg (7.85 KiB) Viewed 365 times
But the "connected" floaters keeping lines a bit perpendicular "away" - will help prevent line tangles around you bar, yes, agree :D

8) Peter
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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby nixmatters » Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:34 pm

Turbaani wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:33 pm
How about 300kg for front lines? I have no clue what kind of loads you get when pushing hard. Not race level push, but pretty fast freeriding at times.
More than sufficient. But lines are normally overspec'd for 2 reasons:
- Safety - even after heavy use and abuse, a 1,5-1,7mm (400-500kg) line has sufficient residual breaking strength. And yet, most of the lines snap due to poor splicing.
- Performance (elongation). The plastic deformation (recoverable stretch) of a kite line is linear. All thicknesses SK99 high quality prestretched lines have ~2% elongation at breaking strength.
That means that at ~100kg load (big air take off) BT-300-99 will have almost double the stretch of the 1.7mm BT-550-99. Edging hard upwind on take off solves this partially.

To your 2nd question - approx 1G (your bodyweight) edging hard upwind with a twintip. Divide by 2 for the load on a single front line.
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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby Trent hink » Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:48 pm

edt wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:33 pm
The "chicken line" is also the depower line. Tho I'm not sure it's the depower line if you don't have a trim and can't depower it. The thick center lines whatever you call it. Keep your minimal bar, I'm not taking it away from you, just saying if someone wants floaters on their otherwise minimal bar there are good reasons for it, so don't hate me for it.

I believe there are some style decisions going into hydrofoil minimalism which are then called functional because style is somehow a dirty word for minimalist hydrofoilers. There's nothing wrong with being stylish.

If you only ride a peak you can also eliminate the quick releases (both leash and chicken loop QR's) entirely since you can rely on the peak collapsing when it crashes. Instead of using a QR to attach yourself to the harness you can use a simple lark's head and eliminate a few more grams of weight.
It's still a de-power-line or "sheeting-line."

If you never use the trim-strap, a bit of line with enough space to move the knot for the centerlines, (for tuning, and just to compensate for eventual stretch/shrinkage) will easily take the place of the trim-strap.

I'd be very hesitant to eliminate the leash and chicken-loop quick releases... It's true you practically never need them, but if you ever need them, it's a life-threatening safety concern.

I learned "way-back-when" on two-line kites with no releases... Lots of people were getting hurt back then, and kitesurfing was considered an "extreme sport."

Especially with hydrofoiling, its true that you almost never need to use them, but they can save your life or save you from serious injury at whatever point you find their use.

It's analogous to seatbelts and air-bags in an automobile; most people never need them, and nobody "plans" on using them, but if somehow you find yourself in a bad situation... they might save your life!

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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby Herman » Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:23 pm

When choosing a bar set up, IMHO,, the harness set up you intend to use should also be taken into account. In the vid the rider seems to be using a low fixed point seat, and so easy access to lots of bar throw. A waist harness with a saggy rope runner is very different, The latter might need a more precise trim of the sweet spot at different points in the kites wind range, although this does not preclude going trimless for small kites it might not be to everybody's taste!

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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby alekbelia » Tue Feb 13, 2024 1:18 pm

Herman wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2024 12:23 pm
When choosing a bar set up, IMHO,, the harness set up you intend to use should also be taken into account. In the vid the rider seems to be using a low fixed point seat, and so easy access to lots of bar throw. A waist harness with a saggy rope runner is very different, The latter might need a more precise trim of the sweet spot at different points in the kites wind range, although this does not preclude going trimless for small kites it might not be to everybody's taste!
This applies more to large size kites. As a general rule, a hydrofoil requires a smaller kites being used (I exclude high jumps and racing hydrofoils).
In addition, hybrid kites and especially singleskin kites are extremely suitable for a bar without a trimmer, since the effective stroke of the bar is small - a maximum of 20-30 cm and even with a waist harness they are comfortable to control.
I would also comment on a common mistake that kites are controlled by changing the position of the bar.
I would say that kites are controlled by the force applied to the bar.
In strong wind, the position of the bar is high, but if we need a little pulling force, we apply a little pressure on the bar.
In light wind it can be the exact opposite. Low bar position and relatively high bar pressure.
And it is the applied force on the bar that makes the kite pull more or less.
Last edited by alekbelia on Tue Feb 13, 2024 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bar for foiling

Postby Herman » Tue Feb 13, 2024 2:12 pm

^^ Agreed, Also, once a little experienced with small kites, it does not matter much if you have a lot of backstall creeps into the sheeting range as small kites because they recover from stall so much quicker than big kites. Personally I have been using long throw trimless bars with a waiste harness plus rope runner for small wave kites for many years but I do occasionally have to pull in center line to recover the bar.


PS To analyse the bar requirement a 20-30cm for working sheeting range for a given wind speed may even be a little generous for small kites. However this working sheeting range moves out as the wind speed increases but again the difference is, normaly, not big for small kites,
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